Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Blood Lore

Vampire 5th edition

Recommended Posts

(First of all I have to say wow, this forum has gone a long hiatus and there hasn't been a thread here since 2015 and not a single one from 2016 which I might as well try to revive this forum the best I can...)

Anyways, I think alot of time has passed since this forum was in hiatus and things about VtM 5th edition which there is alot of things I heard about NuWW that I find rather...unpleasant

First of all a bit of a catch up of recent events:

1. In one of the mobile games they've released, they hired Zak S, a known serial stalker to write "Vampire: We Eat Blood and All of our Friends are Dead" mobile game and it didn't help the fact that one of the characters he added on there who was one of Zak's victims he stalked and harassed who was one of the developers of "Monster Hearts" and turned her into a Transphobic stereotype and worse of all, WW even gaslighted and denied this.

2. Also on the Alpha playtest, not only they added a Pedophile character as a PC but also in the Brujah clan weakness they had "Triggered" which is a Alt-Reich appropriated slur entirely trivializing on PSTD and they turned into something that they get "outraged" by even though not respecting what triggered warnings are which even once again WW has denied any responsibility for this.

3. Lastly I heard some rather...unpleasant things about the current show runner Martin Ericsson who once locked up people with claustrophobia into a closet until the point they were traumatized which it sounds like NuWW has been taken over by trouble players in the Nordic LARP scene.

Anyways that's all the current catch up recent turn of events and as for my personal thoughts about V5 and especially after hearing about all this, I'm not so sure I want to give them a single cent of my money towards them since they clearly don't deserve it at all as much I want to support a new edition of Vampire or any World of Darkness games, I personally feel they just fell into the wrong hands and now we're seeing the outcome.

Edited by Blood Lore

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Procurator

Things upon the site died down towards the end of 2015 and then at some point in 2016.. the site simply disappeared. I did make mention of it to @Mortekai a couple of times about SnE, but did not obtain much information.

I guess I have not kept up with tings, as much as you have @Blood Lore. I was simply excited to see the Classic WoD returning, as I was not that impressed with the New WoD. I truly did not follow much of anything, but glancing at things here or there.. hence knowing about the return of our beloved classic with the 20th Anniversary Edition. As for 5th Edition, honestly.. I have not bothered to even look into it. I was not aware there was enough a beta mobile game, as I would prefer one console based or PC based after the older ones.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Donor

I haven't looked at 5th edition yet either. Not sure when I will, but I might down the road as long as I can get it digital. Are they publishing those through DrivethruRPG still as well as in print?

I picked up the mobile "game" but was honestly disappointed. I'd call it less a game than a "mobile texting-based" novel in that it takes the form of a series of texts from various characters telling a story. It appears to try to capture an "authentic" informal texting relationship through the use of run-on sentences and incorrect or missing grammar. Overall, it makes the messages damn hard to read sometimes. Add to that certain turns of phrase that make little to no sense at times - non sequiturs of story - and overall the experience is somewhat unpleasant even if the story might otherwise be somewhat compelling. Maybe I'm just getting old, though...

As for the internet drama surrounding the writers and everything else, I can't say I paid it a whole lot of attention and I can't see it as worthy of attention being paid.

 

 

Edited by Bebop Cola

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another thing I forgot to add that the lead designer for VtM now is Ken Hite who was the developer of "Night's Black Agents" who has a history of saying this:

 

C_qfhUeUQAA59ZG.jpg

...Yeah not a good sign, plus the guy is a Republican who was a Ted Cruz supporter now let that sink in...

Edited by Blood Lore

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Donor

I don't find someone saying that particularly bothersome. Guy has a preference, as we all do.

Edited by Bebop Cola

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Bebop Cola said:

I don't find someone saying that particularly bothersome. Guy has a preference, as we all do.

Sure it maybe his personal preference but then again it also ties into the reason why NuWW hired him as well while reinforcing this whole problematic idea that "Vampires are (solely) rape/abuse metaphors" (this is yet another topic I would wish to discuss in some other time in another thread which is one of the things that have been bothering me about how Vampires are possibly presented in the WoD based on my previous experiences at other forums and communities so far) edgelordness as their definition of "playing as a monster" (since "monster" is a rather abstract idea or concept what you define it to be) which was why I've pointed it's not a good sign at all.

Edited by Blood Lore

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure what to say about 5th Edition Vampire. I probably won't end up buying it because I never get to play any more - I'm about 900 miles away from the remnants of my old gaming group and haven't met a new one yet, not to mention not really having time for it.

 

I'm intrigued by the idea of making the Hunger a more central part of game dynamics. I'm 50/50 on some of the other changes, and as much fun as playing a vampire who tries to be good can be, at the end of the day the character really *is* a monster. Perhaps a sophisticated monster, maybe even a nice monster, or a monster who wants to be nice anyway, but still a monster. So I can't really disagree with Ken Hite (other than his choice of candidate). But I won't likely get to play or storytell the game, so I don't know how much my opinion might change if I did.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Donor

I'm heavily attached and invested in the Revised Edition of V:tM. I'm only interested in products to the extent they are compatible to this. Since it seems 5th Edition might not be*, I probably won't end up buying any of the new material.

 

*I get the impression they want to revamp Vampire to the extent V:tR did. But without changing the name too, probably for marketing purposes. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Donor

At the moment, converting between V5 pre-Alpha and previous editions wouldn't be too difficult. Just take the average of Mental, Physical, and Social attributes and also divide the character's Willpower by two. But yes, beyond the character sheet the game is mechanically very different.

Darker Days actually just released a playtest game here, if you're curious how the game plays: Darkling #43

As for the social issues.............. yeah, Nu White Wolf doesn't have a great track record at the moment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, Gimli son of Gloin said:

I'm heavily attached and invested in the Revised Edition of V:tM. I'm only interested in products to the extent they are compatible to this. Since it seems 5th Edition might not be*, I probably won't end up buying any of the new material.

 

 

Yeah, what I see here is something I have seen with a lot of newer editions of classic role-playing games. They're written more to bring in new players than to bring back all us hoary old relics who've been playing for a long time. Some of us do tend to get a little insulted by that, yours truly included. But I guess that is the way of the world, the good old days are gone and all that. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Random Avenger said:

I'm 50/50 on some of the other changes, and as much fun as playing a vampire who tries to be good can be, at the end of the day the character really *is* a monster. Perhaps a sophisticated monster, maybe even a nice monster, or a monster who wants to be nice anyway, but still a monster. So I can't really disagree with Ken Hite (other than his choice of candidate). But I won't likely get to play or storytell the game, so I don't know how much my opinion might change if I did.

First of all, like I said before "monster" is a subjective and abstract concept where it could also mean a visage transgressing out of the ordinary that is most likely morally objectionable for example even notions of deformity or anyone with perceived negative personality traits (like being greedy for example) and such can be perceived as monsters as well for example.

So it means that Vampires being blood sucking undead corpses already fit this definition although it's also a mistake to connote the word with "evil" however which is where I'm getting at.

Everything else though like NuWW like Ken Lite is trying to present them as is edgelordship at best meanwhile we have since grown up and matured since the 1990s...

 

Edited by Blood Lore

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Donor

Blore! I've missed your walls of text :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am very interested in the V5 and so far don't feel being let down by White Wolf. ^^;

V5: In regards of the tabletop game I played the Pre-Alpha at the Berlin event and at a German Convention. While there were aspects that had me raise a brow, both games were engaging, interesting system wise and fun. I proceeded to ST the Pre-Alpha a total of four times, I wrote actual play reports about the first two games (report 1, report 2). The Pre-Alpha hasn't been perfect and I did adapt the pre-gens as well as the scenario, though it did grew on me.
Some soft corrections, there isn't a pedophile character in the scenario. There is a character with a feeding restriction towards children and teenagers who happens to have murdered children and is going after young kindred. Which is still bit to heavy handed/somewhat inappropriateiated, and something I removed, but at least no pedophile. In regards to the use of the word "triggered", as a none-native speaker I wouldn't have notice it. Though its not the clan flaw but a compulsion. Which will rarely come up and where the ST is free to choose another one.

Mobile Game: It's a small $5 "choose your own adventure" thing, which I considered nice but nothing big. The whole argument about Zak as a person is a conflict brewing since D&D 5E and something I don't like to get involved in (though remaining neutral did cost me an fB friend @.@). The character mentioned wasn't designed after Avery Alder, but after a Bailey, a trans friend of Zak with fitting (imho strange) Uber story on her twitter.

Nordic Larp: I went to Knutpunkt in Helsinki and Martin wasn't mentioned or regarded as a trouble player. The Nordic Larp scene in general is, a bit strange at times to a view from the outside. Like they got this saying that a successful Larp sees one or several players crying on the floor or in a closet; like in general not the claustrophobic ones. Given all I heard about Nordic Larp they do usually take great care to make sure that everything is consensual. The scene description with the claustrophobic player sounds crude and cruel, though given that it comes directly from Martin, with all the context of Nordic Larp, and my personal estimate that he isn't a person who likes hurting people, I would assume there were safewords in place and the thing wasn't seen as a traumatizing event.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sorry Jennifer but it seems you've been eating their words up and playing part of their gaslighting game now, please don't fall for this please.

4 hours ago, Jennifer Fuss said:

Some soft corrections, there isn't a pedophile character in the scenario.

Reality says otherwise, Vampirism especially within the context of this game is supposed to be a sexual metaphor especially the kiss causing sexual pleasure which means the character is still technically a pedophile no matter what.

 

4 hours ago, Jennifer Fuss said:

In regards to the use of the word "triggered", as a none-native speaker I wouldn't have notice it. Though its not the clan flaw but a compulsion. Which will rarely come up and where the ST is free to choose another one

Then it's time to look up what "triggered" actually means in your local urban dictionary especially it's used within the Alt-Reich context. Please be more aware of the memes going around and it's something you cannot willingly ignore.

 

4 hours ago, Jennifer Fuss said:

The whole argument about Zak as a person is a conflict brewing since D&D 5E and something I don't like to get involved in (though remaining neutral did cost me an fB friend @.@). The character mentioned wasn't designed after Avery Alder, but after a Bailey, a trans friend of Zak with fitting (imho strange) Uber story on her twitter.

Now we're getting alot of load here. If the character isn't based on Avery Alder (which it is) then why is the character named that? If this is the case then maybe he would have named the character Balley instead?

 

4 hours ago, Jennifer Fuss said:

Nordic Larp: I went to Knutpunkt in Helsinki and Martin wasn't mentioned or regarded as a trouble player. The Nordic Larp scene in general is, a bit strange at times to a view from the outside. Like they got this saying that a successful Larp sees one or several players crying on the floor or in a closet; like in general not the claustrophobic ones. Given all I heard about Nordic Larp they do usually take great care to make sure that everything is consensual. The scene description with the claustrophobic player sounds crude and cruel, though given that it comes directly from Martin, with all the context of Nordic Larp, and my personal estimate that he isn't a person who likes hurting people, I would assume there were safewords in place and the thing wasn't seen as a traumatizing event.

If Martin doesn't like hurting people then he shouldn't be locking people with claustrophobia into the closet and then turning around saying it's all "consensual" sounds like the same logic where a man can legally assault his wife because she's "consenting everyway because she's married to him". I think you haven't been into those Nordic LARPs and you don't know anything what actually goes on inside while it should be painfully obvious to you. 

Please don't play into this denial game, this is apart of the abuse and you're only aiding abuser just by being a flying monkey just because it's hard to believe and accept that your current WW show runners happen to be trouble players and horrible people in general (more like it always had since the beginning).

Edited by Blood Lore

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I personally would prefer discussions without making negative attributions like gaslighting.
Where, at least for me, it appears like it stems from me not sharing your view in regards of White Wolf.

5 hours ago, Blood Lore said:

Reality says otherwise, Vampirism especially within the context of this game is supposed to be a sexual metaphor especially the kiss causing sexual pleasure which means the character is still technically a pedophile no matter what.

If you read the vampirism as a rape metaphor quite a lot more material within previous editions of VtM gets very problematic.
Even the V20 got aspects like suggesting "nude children" as a feeding restriction for Ventrue.

Quote

Now we're getting alot of load here. If the character isn't based on Avery Alder (which it is) then why is the character named that? If this is the case then maybe he would have named the character Balley instead?

The character name got chosen without a certain person in mind. Because it is a name the author/s saw fit.
In regards of Bailey Jay, you can check her Twitter, where you can find mention some Uber stories matching roughly with what's described in the game (google gets more twitter stories from her).

Quote

I think you haven't been into those Nordic LARPs and you don't know anything what actually goes on inside while it should be painfully obvious to you. 

I have been to Solmukohta in Helsinki 2016. Which is the biggest Nordic Larp convention there is (afaik). I used it to learn about Nordic Larps and played in some smaller ones (the opening game and one edu-larp), I spoke with people who attended the Helsinki run of End of the Line and people who attended other Nordic Larps. I followed the community after the event and observed it.

When New Orleans Grand Masquerade happened I participated in the "End of the Line" run. One of the organizers told me that this particular run was one of the more intense Nordic Larps there are. I continued to follow the scene and attended both the "End of the Line" and the "Enlightenment in Blood" run in Berlin.
I am not just basing my statements on speculations, a positive view of WW or general believe in humanity but on my experience and first hand reports from players and with the culture.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/18/2017 at 6:57 PM, Jennifer Fuss said:

If you read the vampirism as a rape metaphor quite a lot more material within previous editions of VtM gets very problematic.
Even the V20 got aspects like suggesting "nude children" as a feeding restriction for Ventrue.

Well we all know that Vampires represent alot of metaphors and rape doesn't have to be one of them, but however though what WW has in mind is that they're presenting them as such because it's their way saying that "Vampires are Monsters because we're dark and edgy hurr hurr" by using Victorian Morality as their basis.

Regardless, having Children as a feeding restriction especially having it as playtest character that PCs must pick is a immediate red flag.

 

On 8/18/2017 at 6:57 PM, Jennifer Fuss said:

The character name got chosen without a certain person in mind. Because it is a name the author/s saw fit.
In regards of Bailey Jay, you can check her Twitter, where you can find mention some Uber stories matching roughly with what's described in the game (google gets more twitter stories from her).

http://www.gifbin.com/bin/1238157980_scanners_-_head_explosion.webm

I have no words how to respond to this absurdity and obvious denial of reality I'm laying my eyes on now.

So you just think he just came up with that name out of thin air with no person in mind? Look up who Avery Alder is and come back to me first of all and plus there's a "reason" he 'choose' that name which is not a mere circumstance but rather it's based on a person he once stalked IRL and made a transphobic stereotype out of.

Plus i'm going to link a timeline about Zak S and if this doesn't convince you then there is no further discussion to be added:

http://falsemachine.blogspot.com/2017/02/a-timeline-of-zak-wars.html

This is the man you're sadly defending who is nothing but a notorious stalker and then denying and retconning to say it didn't happen is a pure example of Gaslighting.

I guess it shows you need to stop reading White Wolf's bias and especially everything that comes out of Zak S's mouth which they don't change reality.

Edited by Blood Lore

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Donor
On 8/18/2017 at 8:04 AM, Jennifer Fuss said:

I am very interested in the V5 and so far don't feel being let down by White Wolf. ^^;

V5: In regards of the tabletop game I played the Pre-Alpha at the Berlin event and at a German Convention. While there were aspects that had me raise a brow, both games were engaging, interesting system wise and fun. I proceeded to ST the Pre-Alpha a total of four times, I wrote actual play reports about the first two games (report 1, report 2). The Pre-Alpha hasn't been perfect and I did adapt the pre-gens as well as the scenario, though it did grew on me.
Some soft corrections, there isn't a pedophile character in the scenario. There is a character with a feeding restriction towards children and teenagers who happens to have murdered children and is going after young kindred. Which is still bit to heavy handed/somewhat inappropriateiated, and something I removed, but at least no pedophile. In regards to the use of the word "triggered", as a none-native speaker I wouldn't have notice it. Though its not the clan flaw but a compulsion. Which will rarely come up and where the ST is free to choose another one.

Mobile Game: It's a small $5 "choose your own adventure" thing, which I considered nice but nothing big. The whole argument about Zak as a person is a conflict brewing since D&D 5E and something I don't like to get involved in (though remaining neutral did cost me an fB friend @.@). The character mentioned wasn't designed after Avery Alder, but after a Bailey, a trans friend of Zak with fitting (imho strange) Uber story on her twitter.

Nordic Larp: I went to Knutpunkt in Helsinki and Martin wasn't mentioned or regarded as a trouble player. The Nordic Larp scene in general is, a bit strange at times to a view from the outside. Like they got this saying that a successful Larp sees one or several players crying on the floor or in a closet; like in general not the claustrophobic ones. Given all I heard about Nordic Larp they do usually take great care to make sure that everything is consensual. The scene description with the claustrophobic player sounds crude and cruel, though given that it comes directly from Martin, with all the context of Nordic Larp, and my personal estimate that he isn't a person who likes hurting people, I would assume there were safewords in place and the thing wasn't seen as a traumatizing event.

Hi, Jennifer Fuss. Are you new to this site or were you around when it was up years ago? If the former, welcome. If the latter, welcome back! :-)

Sorry you got a bit of rough treatment from Blood Lore here.

Honestly, Blood Lore...ffs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seriously, What is really the problem in including a pedophile character? I mean, we are already playing creatures that have a hunger for killing and need to content with homicidal instinctins on a scene by scene basis. If a player is not confortable with the theme, I don't see any reasonable storyteller making problem adjusting the premade character a bit.

 

If instead of a premade adventure we were talking about a book or movie, I don't think it would be seen as reasonable to push completely into the authors the burden of cushioning all themes to be pallatable to the public. If a person feels unconfortable with how the plot turns in a movie or in a book he is free to stop subjecting himself to the content and go look for something else to do. Same thing happens in a roleplaying game, people are free and should be welcome to take their leave as soon as they are not enjoying the experience. 

 

Concerning what  kind of metaphor we use vampires for, that's the eye of the beholder and people will make the most convoluted and ellaborated connections if they are willing to put the effort or are particular sensible to a given theme. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/28/2017 at 9:28 AM, kaworu naguisa said:

Seriously, What is really the problem in including a pedophile character?

 

I think you should listen to yourself there.

You don't need anyone tell you how low anyone could get when it comes to defending pedophilia there especially as a premade PC character which should be instead a NPC antagonist character that the PC characters should rip to shreds or put a bullet in their skull whatever the means of dispatching them.

Edited by Blood Lore

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, this thread pretty well encapsulates why I stopped playing Vampire to focus on Mage.

I share Blood Lore's concern for the direction that Paradox wants to go with Vampire 5E specifically, and with the World of Darkness in general. Much of my concerns echo those already posted, but to state them plainly:

I have concerns about the types of characters they feel are OK for players to take on. I understand that each group will draw its own line in the sand as to what's permissible in their chronicle, but that line should not be drawn for them by the game company. There's a difference between being edgy and being disgusting, and playing a pedophile character is not a mindset any player should try to wrap themselves in on a regular basis. It's the type of character PCs should be pitted against, a sign of how low one can sink when they sacrifice enough of their humanity to the Beast, and not something that should be considered acceptable.

While it's been noted that the premade character can be adjusted by the group or leave if they're not comfortable with it, they shouldn't have to do either. It shouldn't even be presented as an option. If the group wants to add that in, however, or finds that this is a perfectly acceptable character for a player, that's a pretty big red flag to me that maybe I don't want to be involved with that gaming group.

As far as the staff working on the new content, I've heard some sketchy things about the people involved. It's one thing to not know about these things before hiring someone who later turns out to be a terrible person, but it's quite another hiring someone who already has a documented history of being terrible. As such, I find it really hard to support the new White Wolf until they let those people go and hire people who aren't walking trash fires.

More than anything, the problems with Vampire 5E and White Wolf right now make me very concerned about what they'll do with Mage when they fully shift their attention to that game. I've played their moble "game" (before I realized what my money was going to support) and... I'm not entirely impressed with the story they told for Mage. (I never even played the Vampire one. I at least found out about the problems with that beforehand.)

At least we still have the 20th Anniversary supplements coming out of Onyx Path.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Donor

Everyone is free to gravitate to the content they feel most comfortable with, but I think it's important to remember this is all pretend-play fiction writing. None of it is real, and no real people are getting hurt.

Vampires are generally reprehensible beings, but so are the Garou, and Mages, and Wraiths, and everyone else in the World of Darkness. The Garou frenzy and murder with damn near impunity, Mages abuse the reality of everyone around them to the benefit of themselves, and so on. No one is a hero here...unless you want to make them one. That's fine too!

Make your vampire, or garou, or mage, or wraith a righteous hero. That's your prerogative, it may be what you enjoy, and no one should judge your for it. It's your game in your make-believe world. That said, folks who want to engage with difficult topics in their own make-believe world don't deserve the outrage on display here. It's a make-believe world. No one is being harmed. Save your outrage for what happens in the real world with real people.

Let's also not forget, it's somewhat disingenuous to complain about this:

On 7/20/2017 at 5:51 PM, Blood Lore said:

Another thing I forgot to add that the lead designer for VtM now is Ken Hite who was the developer of "Night's Black Agents" who has a history of saying this:

 

C_qfhUeUQAA59ZG.jpg

...Yeah not a good sign, plus the guy is a Republican who was a Ted Cruz supporter now let that sink in...

...and also suggest that someone else shouldn't be able to create the content, or play the characters, they might want to. You can't say, "He shouldn't tell me how to play!" then say, "I should be able to tell YOU how to play!" You can't have that both ways and be considered honest. At least this Hite guy is honest enough in the quote (assuming it's real) to recognize that.

We'll set aside the effort to tar someone over what their real-world politics may or may not be. It's completely irrelevant to the content being discussed and reeks of rank, ignorant tribalism.

Edited by Bebop Cola

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
You are commenting as a guest. If you have an account, please sign in.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoticons maximum are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×