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Are Tzimisce Methusalahs part of the conspiracy?

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I've been re-reading the clan books and some other source material for the Tzimiscie. Of interest is the role the Dracon and other Tzimisce Methuselah played in resurrecting Tzimisce during the Dark Ages. I was wondering how they could presume that their Antediluvian actually died during the Anarch Revolt.

Dominate maybe to keep them from looking into it too closely or are they in on the conspiracy? I mean they know what their ante can do. They helped him out the first time. Why wouldn't they do it again.

If they are in on the Eldest's deception then this could be the greatest political move any clan has made in the jyhad (except for Saulot of course. He beats everyone in the game.) Tzimisce and his childer have recruited how many different clans in battling their enemy while they continue their metamorphosis protected and reasonably unmolested.

Something to think about. I think the Lasombra would be pretty pissed if they ever figured it out. How would the Black Hand (True or otherwise) take such a revelation?

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I've been re-reading the clan books and some other source material for the Tzimiscie. Of interest is the role the Dracon and other Tzimisce Methuselah played in resurrecting Tzimisce during the Dark Ages. I was wondering how they could presume that their Antediluvian actually died during the Anarch Revolt.

Well, if the Eldest needed to be resurrected one time it would probably stand that it could be killed, and not resurrected if these Methuselah would not come to its aid. Also it could also be that these old Kindred wants the Eldest to have been destroyed due to the freedom it gives them.

Dominate maybe to keep them from looking into it too closely or are they in on the conspiracy? I mean they know what their ante can do. They helped him out the first time. Why wouldn't they do it again.

But as vampires, why would they help out the Ante instead of killing it and claim freedom for themselves? If the Ante needed their help before it could point them to think that the Ante is not as strong as its made out to be and that without their help it can properly be destroyed.

If they are in on the Eldest's deception then this could be the greatest political move any clan has made in the jyhad (except for Saulot of course. He beats everyone in the game.) Tzimisce and his childer have recruited how many different clans in battling their enemy while they continue their metamorphosis protected and reasonably unmolested.

Could be, but that's also that the Ante and its direct childers shares the same goals of metamorphosis and that they are included in each other's goals.

Something to think about. I think the Lasombra would be pretty pissed if they ever figured it...

As would the Tzimisce and the rest of the Sabbat. I imagine that a blow like that could cause a new revolt against the remaining Tzimisce elders as the Fiends Embraced into the Sabbat seeks to kill the Ante for real this time.

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It's all but stated outright that the Tzimisce didn't actually destroy their founder - in fact, the Obertus revenant family had been presumably guarding the Antediluvian's torporous body after moving it to someplace in New York.

That said, the Week of Nightmares cast the light of suspicion on whether or not the Tzimisce and Lasombra clans had actually destroyed their Antediluvians at all. After all, when Ravanna bit it, every Ravnos in the world went insane for four days. Every clan whose founder was supposedly killed should have, if the Week of Nightmares isn't just a fluke, experienced the same result.

Unless, of course, the Antediluvian doesn't count as "destroyed" when diablerized - a vampire of such immense power is more than likely to subsume the personality of the vampire who diablerized him or her, so when Lasombra's childe diablerized him, Lasombra probably just got a new body, much like Saulot did (on a time delay) with Tremere's body.

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Donor

One of the things that's currently worrying some PCs in game is exactly this about Lasombra. Depending on who you talk to, it was either diablerized the Lasombra who's name I'm forgetting because he never seems to DO anything after that OR the Hulul. who relatively few other people ever see but has the whole elaborate diablerie every hundred years thing going on.

anyway two of the characters were drawn into the whole elaborate prep for the Hulul to transfer power. They never actually saw the Hulul clearly, almost always through intermediaries OR through telepathic contact. But one thing they did pick up from all that was the Hulul had a rampaging case of shadow infestation, thus why they never actually saw it clearly. They're not sure if it just doesn't like being seen or actually can't uncloak itself.

Third character, a Lasombra, is not involved in this prep but for other plot reasons, one of his relatives decides to come visit him. Basil has never actually seen Orfeo in person because Orfeo far prefers taking over someone else's body and sending them to act as his mouthpiece, Travel is dangerous, send the puppet! So Basil's not actually sure what Orfeo looks like since he's only ever seen these puppets. (and they creep him the hell out, quite honestly) anyway, in discussing how exactly Ofreo does that, it comes up that he does eventually have to ditch favorite bodies due to them eventually getting a nasty case of shadow infestation.

Hey, now wait a minute here... this sounds familiar from somewhere else...

He gets a vague description from his sire of how this is done and it sounds awfully similar to prep being done with Hulul. Vampires just break down a lot slower.

and if something had a hell of a lot of Abyss Mystacism, that would explain why the Hulul appears to have some version of Thaumaturgy.

so they're now trying to figure out if the whole diablerize the hulul every hundred years is just Lasombra plays body switcharoo with an Assamite and has now trained them to bring him delicious little vampires until he finds a body he likes. shadow infestation, just inevitable diablerie side effect. yes. that's it. I HAVE A LOT OF DOMINATE. nothing to worry about here!

so they're a bit more worried than the general existential "could it just dominate you into thinking you'd killed it?" that most everyone else has.

Yeah that shadow infestation could just be a side effect of the Hulul actually diablerizing Lasombra. Or be Lsaombra itself effectively leaking out of a body that's not really his.

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I've been re-reading the clan books and some other source material for the Tzimiscie. Of interest is the role the Dracon and other Tzimisce Methuselah played in resurrecting Tzimisce during the Dark Ages. I was wondering how they could presume that their Antediluvian actually died during the Anarch Revolt.

A fantastic topic for dicussion! Nice one. I've been reading a lot of back and forth between Dark Ages sources and Masquerade ones of late, and I hope I can shed a little light on this. I love the way the histories in the Clanbooks of the modern era are substantially muddier than their Dark Ages equivalents, to account for centuries of factual erosion, political spin and clan dissolution.

I believe the rebirth that you are referring to is the one referenced in the Dark Ages Tzimisce clan novel? If so, a couple of salient points arise:

Firstly, I think the death the Dracon speaks of is also recounted in the Tzimisce clanbook, but with a different spin. If memory serves he was "killed" by Samiel and several other Salubri demon-hunters before the rise of Mycenaean Greece, or at least certainly well before the Dracon joined Michael and Antonius.

That would likely place the death before the 1st millenium BCE, not the Dark Ages. So, that would be nearly 2500-3000 years of typical Cainite intrigue, inveiglement and obfuscation (no pun intended) between what happened and the events in 1413 CE.

Secondly, It was my understanding that the intimate details of the rebirth of the Eldest with the assistance of the Dracon was not common knowledge amongst the clan. Or at least, not amongst those who survived the Anarch Revolt. Let's consider those Metamorphosist Methuselah's of the clan who would have had a hand in, or intimate knowledge of, that ancient rebirth:

Yorak: The "Saint" of Metamorphosis, accounted either the eldest or 2nd eldest of [Tzimisce's] childer- Final Death 1472 CE.

Triglav the Three Headed: powerful Koldun, self-proclaimed god- Final Death c. 702 CE.

The Dracon: seen as a dangerous heretic by the Carpathian metamorphosists, but favoured by [Tzimisce] for his radical advances- Last seen c.1230 CE (anything more would be a Spoiler)

Byelobog: another self-proclaimed god, fell into torpor 1279. Final Death, diablerised by Lugoj in the late 14th century (I think).

Kartarariya: does not appear to be in the habit of sharing its confidences with its lessers in the western clan, and indeed doesn't appear to consider anyone its equal in the modern nights. After all, it too has proclaimed itself a god in the past... B)

Others, including Ionache, Demdemeh, Cyscek, Andeleon and especially Lord Ruthven (who served as [Tzimisce's] guardian throughout the Dark Ages) likely would have known, but had no intimate hand in it as their interests lay elsewhere. The last two were also dead by the time of the Anarch Revolt; the first two are little more than legends even to clan scholars, and Cyscek, from what I can tell, is the proverbial 'man of mystery', practically unknown until the Final Nights.

In short, consider how many true Tzimisce methuselah's (as opposed to folks of Lambach or Velya's younger vintage) who are "in the know" and are in a position to have an opinion and say anything about it? Near as I can tell, Bugger all.

[Tzimisce] had learned everything that it could from them. Now to dispose of them in such a way as to take itself out of the jyhad until it was ready to strike at its fellow Antediluvians. Hmm, those pesky Furores seem to be growing in strength out in the woods. They'll do. Let's give them a hand.

Well played, [Tzimisce]. Well played indeed.

Thirdly, it has been a while since I read it and do feel free to correct me, but the Tzimisce clan book doesn't actually say that [Tzimisce] copped it at Samiel's hands. It only says that he entered the Sleep of Ages, and the clan went into something of a decline. Granted, a few side-bar comments indicate that certain Tzimisce suspect that the blood of their progenitor (and thus, their own) holds a 'seed' of potential that disturbs them, but I'd wager they don't understand how or why!

Aces. Great sense of continuity when combined with the Dark Ages Tzimisce clan novel. However, IMHO it places the reader with a certain knowledge of clan history that exceeds even the wildest nightmares of Tzimisce clan scholars.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

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I want that book now!

can't stand the clan for players but wow.

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