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Von Bredow

Abortion and Metis

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Curator

Can it happen? Does it happen? If not, why not?

In fact, is it even mentioned at all? It seems a pretty obvious solution to a pretty major problem...

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...Really picked a nice day to discuss this..

From what I can figure out, it doesn't work. Either the mother heals too quickly, or the fetus claws you. Plus, most of garou nation really aren't on board with helping a litany breaker anyway, so if you get pregnant with a metis, tough shit.

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Donor

CoG Tribebook says it works, For what it's worth, But I think it's more what Ana says.

You can't go to a human hospital to get it done because the baby will be a veil breach, and those garou who can help are probably more prone to saying "Fucking deal with it Charach"

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Oh it's certainly very possible, but it's unlikely that you'll find a clinic that'd do it, so that leaves backalley or self-abortions. Niether of which are pretty, which is why you haven't heard of them. Nobody really wants to go to that dark a setting.

But in a related example, on the (sadly inactive) forum I helped run, the head Spiral raped the Theurge he was using for prophecies to ensure her full concentration on the task at hand with the reward for delivering being that she could rip the fetus out of herself (and the punishment for screwing up being forced to give birth to it even if he had to rip off her arms and jaw to make it happen).

Like I said, very dark places that I'm not suprised people would rather avoid.

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Curator

It's pretty dark already! I'm not sure adding abortions - although I accept my beliefs on them differ to other people's - makes it any darker.

It just occurred to me because if I was a female Garou, it would seem an incredibly obvious choice - but nothing's ever said about it in game that I'd seen. As for getting help - there was a recent news story over here where a woman simply ordered some abortifacient drugs online and induced a miscarriage. So, certainly humans nowadays need no external help other than a net connection and a debit card (which may or may not represent an obstacle to any particular Garou).

If I'm honest, looking at it, it looks like it might be easier to say that CoG book is wrong again and it can't happen.

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Well, we're looking at not one, but two Garou here. What that means is, abortifacant drugs would have to squeeze through the mothers' metabolism, THEN affect the metis, who even in the womb is going to be a tough little bastard. A mechanical abortion would probably carry risk of frenzy... And of course, when you combine the odds of leaving... uh, bits behind, with the magic combination of stem cells and metis regeneration?

I'd say it's possible, but very difficult. it's probably easier to carry to term and then kill the metis, if that's what you're going to do.

Also, I don't think it would be a risk to the veil. Most abortions are performed pretty early on, and at that stage, pretty much every chordate looks the same. Later on, it's simply a very deformed fetus (assuming it's even recognizable.) Late-term... Yeah, okay, I think the doctor would notice something amiss when Jojo the invincible dogheaded boy claws his way out and makes a hell of a mess.

Either way? You're not just guilty of creating a metis... you're also killing a Garou and / or trying to avoid the responsibility for breaking the Litany. I doubt even the most progressive of garou are going to let it slide, honestly.

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Obvious maybe, but you have to remember the social stigma the mother faces as well. Aborting the metis cub through some means might not be treated all that well in the more accepting tribes. I could see a Silver Fang commiting double suicide by tearing her guts out to keep her Honor, or a Fenrir gaining back her tribe's respect by doing the same and surviving. Though, modern Fenrir might not be as accepting about that.

But tribes like Bone Gnawers, Children of Gaia, Black Furies, Uktena and the Striders? You are killing another garou who could be useful in the war because you are selfish and don't want to deal with responsibility of your actions.

Though, we are assuming the mating was consented. When it comes to rape, it might not be as clearcut.

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Curator

*sighs* I now want to make Jojo the Invincible Dogheaded Boy into a spirit.

Cat, the issue of carrying to term here is everyone knows, unless you actually went and hid for about 8 months... in which case I imagine everyone suspects.

And yeah, if people found out, you would not be Ms Popular for various reasons. Would they though? Unless the spirit world tells on her, I honestly don't see how any Garou would find out, unless she slipped and did something stupid.

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*sighs* I now want to make Jojo the Invincible Dogheaded Boy into a spirit.

Cat, the issue of carrying to term here is everyone knows, unless you actually went and hid for about 8 months... in which case I imagine everyone suspects.

And yeah, if people found out, you would not be Ms Popular for various reasons. Would they though? Unless the spirit world tells on her, I honestly don't see how any Garou would find out, unless she slipped and did something stupid.

They would, easily.

First off, the character's pack. Pack is the smallest unit in the garou society, and every garou is assumed to have one. The pack would notice if something was up with their packmate. Totem would no doubt also notice.

Second, it takes two to tango. Maybe the father gets all freaked out about things and confesses his deed.

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That's assuming the father knows. A drunken one night stand where the father goes off to another sept.

As for a pack, assuming they notice they could just as easily agree to cover up for her (and the fluff description for strength in the revised corebook is an example of that). The same with their totem, why would they want their pack to be weakened by scandal? From a pragmatic view, the abortion is the best option since a metis birth has a great chance of killing the mother or rendering her unable to have children again. Both options are depriving the Garou of more warriors, and the cub might not

As for the points raises about various tribes by Ana (or rather a specific one), Silver Fangs wouldn't acknowledge the abortion happened, because there are no Silver Fang Metis. Peroid. The tribe denies it up and down and goes through a great effort to ensure nobody can prove otherwise. If the rest of the Silver Fang's at a sept notice, they'll just pretend to be ignorant of it and only act if it will come back to haunt them.

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They would, easily. First off, the character's pack. Pack is the smallest unit in the garou society, and every garou is assumed to have one. The pack would notice if something was up with their packmate. Totem would no doubt also notice. Second, it takes two to tango. Maybe the father gets all freaked out about things and confesses his deed.

Third, there's that bit where she'd have to spend the third trimester in crinos in order to have even a chance of carrying the definitely-larger-than-a-normal-human infant while regenerating all the damage the little critter is doing to her insides.

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Curator

I think it's fairly safe to say any Garou intending to abort a metis would have done so long before the third trimester.

The point about the father potentially tripping up is a fair one. So too is the pack, although that varies from pack to pack and Garou to Garou - I would still say that's in the Garou's control - and Shaoken's point that at least some packs would be happy to cover up is fair as well.

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Donor

assuming that Garou work even VAGUELY like their component species around 20% of all human pregnancies end in miscarriage. Canines its hard to pin down a more exact number, but probably around same.

In humans around 90-95% of fetuses with genetic abnormalities are spontaneously aborted by the body, the majority in first trimester. (roughly half of all miscarriages are due to genetic abnormalities)

If we assume Garou are a little better at carrying to term by dint of not being prone to miscarriage due to infection, if we generously say they miscarry half as often, so 10%. If could still be around 20% since the fetuses is effectively a parasite living inside the body and considering Garou regeneration, the body trying to expel that might even out against the not having to deal with infections. Plus of course Garou have to deal with extreme violence and shapeshifting. (and from background material on generally how FEW offspring are mentioned for female Garou in setting material, if ANY are mentioned at all, I'd err on side of rate is probably HIGHER than human average)

and then you get back to the 90-95% of genetically abnormal fetuses are spontaneously aborted by the body. Even if spiritually they get hit with the spiritual "bad litany breaker, BAD!" stick and you ignore that, they've probably still got about a 1 in 5 chance that even if they did get pregnant, they'd miscarry anyway. or would induce one via shapeshifting!

and if its all handwaved as spiritual override for litany breakers having to deal with it, the FATHER should also be hit with some sort of spiritual consequence as well.

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Donor

Let's dial it back just a tad.

I'm almost 100% sure that a Garou body would not spontaneously abort the fetus upon implantation because it's a parasite. It's a natural part of the human body, human immune systems can (rarely) do it but that's because they're malfunctioning, the entire point of the placenta is to prevent that from happening, unless you're implying that they have some kind of super werewolf placenta.

...

(Checks that off his list of things he never thought he'd need to say)

Wow, two in one month, new record.

Ultimately, yes, it is a little unfair that the female has to bear the physical hardship of carrying a metis to term, but I think that's more a choice made for the sake of drama than realism, a female character would not be carrying a metis unless her player *wanted* her to be carrying a metis, or you have a V E R Y Sadistic GM who doesn't care about what you want in which case get the fuck out of that game anyway.

And, thankfully, it's nowhere near as bad as in W:TF, where even if you abort it it grows back anyway. BECAUSE YOU ARE CARRYING THAT HORRIBLE DEATH BABY PLOT DEVICE TO TERM GODDAMNIT!

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Curator

Have to say, I look at the facts and come to far different conclusions than Fenrislorsai...

I think the lack of named children for female NPCs is an oversight and not a clue; I think Garou's special metabolisms are more likely to work with the baby, due to their spiritual resonances as creatures of the Mother; and I think shapeshifting and combat do not greatly affect a Garou's chances of miscarriage, as otherwise there'd be all sorts of social stigma against it, and there'd be even less Garou than there already are.

And I don't think Metis are some sort of spiritual punishment; they're a spiritual consequence, a particular blossoming of life brought on by two Garou sexing it up. Garou may think they're a form of punishment, but that doesn't mean they're right. Nobody knows why Gaia made them that way - it's not necessarily punishment. It's not even necessarily intentional.

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Donor

Barely any of the male NPCs are mentioned as having offspring either. Or relatives. Generally all the sig characters only have Kinfolk so they may DIE TRAGICALLY. usually as back story.

King Albrecht is kind of the poster child for missing important info on offspring or even relatives. Hello King of the American fangs, why are there not a zillion kinfolk families camped out on your lawn attempting to arrange a marriage for political reasons? (or arranging some slightly more distant relatives, that we assume you have somewhere) arranged marriages for dynastic reasons rather go with the job.

The whole metis issue kind of ties in with the all relatives are just tragic backstory issue. It's just even more obvious that nobody has live family. TRAGIC BACK STORY TIME.

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CoG mentioned one example (as mentioned) but in that case it was because the baby would have killed the mother before birth, so it was a either one dies or two die situation.

On average I think it is not practiced.

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I think lots of packs would cover up, I think chances of carrying to term is tiny - however as IRL 9/10 babys born after 28 weeks survive I think we can presume Metis stand a better chance.

While I have no issue with all this, I am not sure it is something I would want to shine a spotlight on in game, questions of infant mortality is to close to the bone for me.

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