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Mav

Could crossover ever work?

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^ That's as good an explanation as any.

We need to remember that the Garou, Mages, etc are not omniscient. Their views of reality are not necessarily infallible. This may sound like heresy, but I find it hard to believe that Gaia came down and told the Garou what the truth was and what to do. Their totems did that, and it's not like spirits would ever have agendas of their own, right? For all we know, the Triadic conflict may simply be a "runaway paperclip scenario." And we all know how mages like to "reject your reality and substitute my own," so the concept of any objective truth is anathema to them. Or something. It's weird like that.

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^Gaia didn't come down and tell them that. But the gameline makes it clear Gaia exists, the triat exists, and that's the way the world runs, and not in a in-game section, but in a "storyteller's eyes only" bit. Likewise Mage has a similar bit confirming that it's cosmology was correct.

Every gameline, for as far it was concerned, had the right cosmology. Hunter The Reckoning took it through to it's naturally conclusion by advising STs to follow it's rules on other splats and not those corebooks.

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Donor

I came up with a werewolf-centric unified cosmology earlier in response to a post by someone else. but that's the problem

At least one game line has to be 'right' in this situation, their view has to color all the other ones because each one has a contradictory viewpoint of how things work. Werewolf just (in my opinion) has the one that allows for the most wiggle room because werewolves can say "well they thought this was happening, but it was actually spirits".

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part of me thinks none of them are right, or not totally but I can't begin to imagine what the actual truth would be.

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Donor

part of me thinks none of them are right, or not totally but I can't begin to imagine what the actual truth would be.

IN THE BEGINING

THERE WAS THE LORD

AND HIS NAME WAS BIEBER

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That's what I had said. When you decide to run a crossover game ultimately you have to have one that is Right. As written they contradict each other too much to have multiple settings all be Right from top to the bottom. Anyone could take one of the settings and with work fit the others in underneath it, but it doesn't solve the problem of All of them being Right because all but one is only mostly right. And only one is Right.

AND BIEBER SAW A BARREN WORLD AND THIS SADDENED HIM.

SO HE CREATED BLACK TO BRING LIFE TO THIS WORLD WITH HIS AID

AND IT WAS GOOD

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Donor

AND ON THE FIFTH DAY HE RESTED

BECAUSE IT WAS

FRIDAY

FRIDAY

GOTTA REST ON FRIDAY

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AND ALL WAS GOOD

UNTIL THE TEMPTER ASTLEY CREPT LIKE A SERPENT

HE WHISPERED PROMISES OF WORSHIP INTO THE EAR

OF BOTH LORD BIEBER AND BLACK

AND CURIOUS, BOTH LISTENED TO HIS PROMISES

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That's what I had said. When you decide to run a crossover game ultimately you have to have one that is Right. As written they contradict each other too much to have multiple settings all be Right from top to the bottom. Anyone could take one of the settings and with work fit the others in underneath it, but it doesn't solve the problem of All of them being Right because all but one is only mostly right. And only one is Right.

Your talking about systems again.

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Remember, we get much of Demon's backstory from Gaviel so it is somewhat biased by what Gaviel remembers. Much of what "really" happened in Demon is filtered through the eyes of the Demon's mortal host. Thus if a Demon possesses a Christian, like Gaviel possessed Noah Wallace, it will tend to see things in those terms. Had Gaviel possessed a Hindu or an atheist, we might have gotten a very different story.

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^ The books contradict that several times. In fact, Earthbound directly states that many ancient religions, including Hinduism, were the worship of the Earthbound*. Except Buddhism, which was founded by Lucifer in order to help mankind. And Judaism, even though the "war in heaven" story didn't come about until medieval Christian theologians misinterpreted certain passages of the Bible.

* At least, when they weren't vampires, faeries, spirits or whatever (e.g. Kali is a Tzimisce methuselah and the Naraka are faeries). Oh, and the Ancient Egyptian and Taoist deities aren't Earthbound either.

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Likewise Werewolf contradicts established Demon setting. And Changeling contradicts both Demon and Werewolf. And despite what Mav said, I wasn't talking about systems but settings. When one setting has the Christian god as an Incarna,, and below the Triat,, Gaia, Luna, and any of the other solar bodies, that would contradict the Demon setting that says that God is All Powerful. I said when you run a game you choose one setting to be the right one. It usually coincided with whatever basis for the game you are running, but not always. You could run a Demon or Hunter game with the Werewolf or Mage setting being dominant, when it comes to Cosmology. But with the amount of contradiction, one has to be right completely. The others are just slightly less right, but still partially wrong.

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well setting wise none of them need to be right, nor does anyone need to know what is the truth.

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Donor

Comparing it to the Cold War is probably a very good idea. or really any of the current conflicts where propping up a dictator is better than the unknown. or the alternative. Those is power generally want to preserve the status quo so as preserve what power they do have so they can pursue more relevant goals. Getting into a row with the other supernaturals generally wastes power and disrupts the status quo. When there's a direct conflict of interests, then its going to be MORE high stakes than with a neutral party.

The most likely conflicts are going to come up when multiple supernaturals want to either exploit or prevent exploitation of the same resources. In many cases they may AGREE on what to do in broad terms, but disagree with each other in specifics. If you're running a high conflict game, the details cannot be compromised on! You will fight over them an potentially destroy what you wanted to spite the other party. In a crossover game, the emphasis is just on emphasizing that the supernatural groups often have similar overlapping goals... though may have totally different reasons for pursuing the same goal.

For example, lets look at general idea of public health. Vampires generally are going to favor robust health systems because this is their FOOD. They are generally not going to want large scale outbreaks. Garou want to avoid large scale suffering or plague as it feeds Banes and makes their life a lot harder. Changelings don't want large scale suffering as it's going to interfere with their "food" as well and possibly spawn nasty chimera and nervosa. Mages are all over the lot but probably don't really wish ill upon humanity.

Then you get down to details that can cause fighting. So local vampires think vaccination for a new bloodborne disease is a great idea. Yes, let's do that. The other three may agree in general outline.... but... the vaccine is made by Pentex. Or the Technocracy. Now one or more of the group's is opposed... but not for reasons that can be readily explained or that they SHOULD explain. ("don't help my enemies!") They still agree in general outline, they disagree in implementation. A high conflict game, they get into it over this and its just more "that group is out enemy! here is another example of their evil schemes!" If you're going for crossover, the game then needs to focus on the shared goal (let's not have a plague!) and the groups need to dance around how to resolve the details and acknowledge that working with "the enemy" is not always bad. Just because your enemy agrees with you does not automatically mean what you're doing IS wrong. They are not universally opposed to you in every single detail. Doing the opposite of what your enemy wants is not automatically the right course of action.

So, yes, you can do crossover by just choosing to focus on common interests between the groups. It could be something big like that where you revolve the chronicle around big dramatic goals like that... or even fighting common enemies. (Pentex actually makes a great enemy here since vampires are much better equipped to fight Pentex... but do not understand its motivations at all. garou are terribly ill equipped to fight it... but understand its motivations.) Or you can bring it down to more personal level where groups are in general conflict in setting but you have individuals that are running into each other and must be at least civil to each other in public to get anything done. If a vampire, a mage, a changeling are all on the board of trustees for a non-profit group fighting each other directly just destroys the resource they wanted to use. sometimes they have to get along to get ANYTHING. That doesn't mean they don't fight at all, it just means that if they agree, there's no reason to be an asshole just because the other person is of an opposed group.

It's back to the cold war scenario. Sometimes the various members of the UN security council all agree and vote together... sometimes they veto stuff just to be dicks. Sometimes they just agree to NOT disagree and stay neutral and abstain from voting.

Really crossover boils down to "even enemies sometimes agree and can manage to NOT be dicks to get what they BOTH want". to use real world example, the ACLU is currently defending the KKK's attempt to adopt a highway:

http://dailycaller.c...way-in-georgia/

If you're the ST, make sure all the players in the crossover have at least some common broad goals (they don't have to agree on details or WHY) and make sure there's no deal breaker conflicts. (don't have a Ventrue that can only eat Kinfolk in a game with Garou!)

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I have to add this one thing, due reading yet another disclaimer of 'No crossover,ever' from DA: British Isles.

As much as White Wolf says there should be no crossover, most if not all fluff regarding other species often is very specific about them. DA Inquisitor companion notes that an Oculi Dei candiate can be kinfolk, and refers them as such.

A little knowledge about WtDA and you'll have a Silver Fang kin, making the character technically a crossover character. Does it take away from the game? I think, if everyone knows their game, it can ADD to it.

So, as a minor note, canon does crossover too.

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Here is my issue with the cold war idea, the CC would be a largely bookish organisation (Large proportion are Christian and bring with them the Christian way IE write everything down) with a large number itching for a crusade.

Once they discover that Demons exist and BSD's they would go to war.

Again due to the Christian nature of the Tradition they also create lots and lots of rotes (go to church and see it is true).

So the Chorus would rally allies and go all in.

once they are all but dead the BSD's and Demons would be weakened enough for others to step in and clean house, which would expose them and others would do the same.

Does anyone think that the lower downs in the Technocracy that still think "all this" is for humanity would watch BSD's and Demons?

Would the Church (Christian and Islam) and all the Sabbat tied to it not put a dent in Pentex?

Who ever shoots first I can't believe no one would, so opposed are the ideals.

I guess I have just come to see it all as a house of cards.

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