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Ana Mizuki

Klaive or no Klaive?

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I dunno. I don't see how klaives are more honorable duel weapons,

snip

A Klave is a sign of importance, the bearer is "someone" also it is seen by many as a great weapon against the BSD's, many Garou see the BSD's as the greatest perversity of the Wyrm.

While it does make things harder for the pack in many ways, war is hard and they are the ultimate Warriors.

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And one thing, Klaives only take away the bearer's gnosis, not the whole pack's.

And again, Klaive is a heirloom. It's like having a katana forged by masamune, it tells something about its user.

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Curator

The Silver Fangs, the Fianna and the Fenrir have the most klaives of all the tribes, because all three were at the frontlines when the White Howlers fell to the Wyrm.

Pretty sure it stated those three have more than the rest of the tribes put together.

They're holy. Is it logical they're holy? I think they're at least as logical as adopting the crucifix as a religious symbol. It is representative of the bond between the Garou and Luna, of the sacrifice they make, of the sacrifice the spirits make.

To me, every tribe has them in some form. Every tribe also has their own weapons, their own influences, but these weapons are revered in the tribe - the klaive is revered in the nation.

Being slightly cynical, they also make great status symbols for leaders in a rough and tumble society as there's nothing like two feet of silver at someone's hip to make someone reconsider their challenge.

Also, many klaives are old enough that their initial expense really isn't an issue.

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Also, many klaives are old enough that their initial expense really isn't an issue.

I can't see Klaves costing much more than any master crafted weapon, why would anyone who has a large network of support allow something like cost stand between them and duty?

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Guest Jeebers

I dunno. They already have weapons against the Banes that are MORE effective than anything a klaive or grand klaive would be able to do. More than that, klaives by definition are made out of silver, which is the one substance which can easily kill werewolves. However, that substance is not effective against Banes, their primary enemy. It has to be somehow enchanted to simply become as effective as their standard claws etc to pull that off.

Thus, it seems pretty silly for a werewolf to use a silver weapon in war, and dueling to quick death between werewolves seems idiotic in the face of the rapidly losing war against the Wyrm. Plus it's expensive to get that much silver in the first place. All of this is imho, of course.

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Thus, it seems pretty silly for a werewolf to use a silver weapon in war, and dueling to quick death between werewolves seems idiotic in the face of the rapidly losing war against the Wyrm. Plus it's expensive to get that much silver in the first place. All of this is imho, of course.

Here's the thing, though; they weren't always fighting a losing war. For most of the known history the garou had little worry about the Wyrm. Hence, their culture reflects a warrior society born of tribal wars and terrotory fights.

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Guest Jeebers

Then, wouldn't it make sense not to make klaives available to PC's? And, weren't they starting to get shafted as of the last 500 years or so (you'd think they'd get the hint)?

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Then, wouldn't it make sense not to make klaives available to PC's? And, weren't they starting to get shafted as of the last 500 years or so (you'd think they'd get the hint)?

Why would they not be allowed? They are a symbol of a werewolf's status and heritage as much as their purebreed is.

Things were getting worse yes, but until industrial revolution, it really wasn't that fast. And up until the second world war and the atom bomb, things weren't nearly as bad as they were in the modern age. Black Spiral Dancers used to be just a joke and nothing more, now they outnumber most garou tribes easily. And who says they didn't get the hint, if you look at Children of Gaia, Glass Walkers or Bone Gnawers, they sure did take the hint.

However, you have to remember that the klaives are holy items. They are akin to holy relics of the Garou Nation, and the bearers are assumed to have earned theirs fairly.

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Guest Jeebers

The Industrial Revolution was about 100 years ago, and the Garou never figured out they were screwed, and so change their practices involving fatal duels?

Just doesn't seem practical or even sane, imho. Plus, the depopulation before the IR was quite steady, so one would think their records would have allowed them to note what was happening.

Oh well. Nobody said a fictional setting had to make sense.

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The Industrial Revolution was about 100 years ago, and the Garou never figured out they were screwed, and so change their practices involving fatal duels?

Just doesn't seem practical or even sane, imho. Plus, the depopulation before the IR was quite steady, so one would think their records would have allowed them to note what was happening.

Oh well. Nobody said a fictional setting had to make sense.

They figured, and did change things. Tribal wars are quite rare in modern days, after all. Klaive duels to the death tend to happen among garou who have high breeding and long ties to their tribes anyway, which is quite rare among them these days.

Wars are never practical or sane, we humans have killed one another over the history for varying reasons, which aren't all sensible. And we don't have Rage or our ancestors speaking in our heads, or breeding confirmed to reach back to times -before- human civilization.

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The Industrial Revolution was about 250 years ago, and the Garou never figured out they were screwed, and so change their practices involving fatal duels?

Just doesn't seem practical or even sane, imho. Plus, the repopulation before the IR was quite steady, so one would think their records would have allowed them to note what was happening.

Oh well. Nobody said a fictional setting had to make sense.

Fixes in red.

First, the industrial revolution don't have an exact date, but we say 1750 as its about then the industry started to be improved in a whole new way.

Secondly, there was much more people before the industrial revolution than most people seem to imagine. Sure, the black plague killed millions of people, but that was mostly around 1340-1360. People soon started mating again.

Here's some numbers for you, also known as demographics. Population around the year 1600.

France 19.000.000

The German areas 16.000.000

Italian areas 13.100.000

England 5.000.000

Spain 8.100.000

Russia 15.000.000

("Dei Europeiske Trolldomsprosessane". Hagen. Det Norske Samlaget 2007.http://www.bokogmedia.no/dei-europeiske-trolldomsprosessane)

Another thing I didn't get, Jeebers, is the notion that Garou should have changed in some direction based on knowledge we have now, as readers. Let me rephrase it in another way: We know narcotics isn't good for us, why won't everyone change their way and stop misusing narcotics? We know that USA is a screwed up society, why won't USA change their practices involving social benefits for their citizens? Why won't USA stop with death penalties? Why won't USA chase the Tea Party movement into the ocean and let them have their tea party along with the Boston tea?

Its easy for me to sit here and judge a whole nation based on my knowledge that might even be wrong. Its not as easy to give up something when you are part of it, and its also difficult to change stubborn people that don't want change. There is also the ethics that forcing change upon someone isn't really solving anything, but just adding to the problem.

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Guest Jeebers

I dated the IR to 100 years ago because that was at about the end of it. I figured by then the werewolves would have figured out the concept that they were losing numbers at a wildly exponential rate.

I dunno. Just doesn't make sense to me. But then, much of Werewolf doesn't make a lot of sense, at least in my eyes. Of course, much of what humanity does renders me puzzled anyway.

One thing that I never understood, was that werewolves in movies and books never really behaved like human OR wolves, or even a blend of the two. Your typical wolf is highly pragmatic, and doesn't pick fights where it doesn't need to for survival. Humans don't typically go into berserk rages either. I do know that the medieval version of werewolves had them being incredibly depressed and near suicidal. More a figure of pity than of fear. They also ran about eating corpses, not the living.

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An observation: When you start out every arguement with "I dunno" you are stating that you have no clue, but you will say something nevertheless. I guess the intent is something different, I still would like to give you the heads up.

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One thing that I never understood, was that werewolves in movies and books never really behaved like human OR wolves, or even a blend of the two. Your typical wolf is highly pragmatic, and doesn't pick fights where it doesn't need to for survival. Humans don't typically go into berserk rages either. I do know that the medieval version of werewolves had them being incredibly depressed and near suicidal. More a figure of pity than of fear. They also ran about eating corpses, not the living.

Garou are a mix, but what you are speaking about is explained in the books. It is Rage, gift from Luna to fight Gaia's enemies. But also a curse, why? Because the higher Rage the werewolf has, the more likely are they to get mad, scare humans away (the curse, humans REALLY don't want to be near any garou with Rage higher than 3). Rage can be used for extra actions, but it will also lead you to a berserk frenzy.

And about the werewolf myths IRL vs werewolf; White Wolf has every right to change the mythos to reflect their game. The Garou are warriors, not cursed unfortunates. If you want the cursed unfortunates angle, Werewolf Forsajen Chroniclers Guide has them.

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Procurator

Klaives are also used against the Black Spiral Dancers. Which is why the three tribes present during the Fall of the White Howlers own so many of them. It isn't always tribal warfare and klaive-dueling.

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Guest Jeebers

An observation: When you start out every arguement with "I dunno" you are stating that you have no clue, but you will say something nevertheless. I guess the intent is something different, I still would like to give you the heads up.

It's meant to say that I am unsure, and willing to change my opinion if better arguments crop up.

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Now, here's an interesting question; What tribes use klaives?

No, it is not as simple as "all of them execpt Bone Gnawers and Glass Walkers". In fact, multiple times in both art and fiction, Glass Walkers are said to posess klaives along with modern weapons. Furthermore, some tribes have their own signature weapons and it would be more likely that these weapons are used intribe than klaives.

Furthermore, garou outside eurasia don't seem the types to use klaives.

So, tribes that are likely to use klaives, in my opinion; Silver Fangs, Fianna, Glass Walkers, Shadow Lords.

Tribes with their own weapons; Silent Striders (D'siadh), Get of Fenris (Warhammers), Black Furies (Labrys)

Tribes that are unlikely to use klaives; Red Talons, Star Gazers, Wendigo, Uktena?

The rest, I'm not sure about.

Edit: Added furies' weapon.

I know this is a VERY old thread, but ran across it and felt the need to correct some things.

Three types of Klaives exist technically, Klaive (Signature weapon of the Garou Nation, large silver dagger), Fetish Klaive (Dagger with bound spirit), and Grand Klaive (Full sized silver sword with 2 bound spirits, rare weapons passed down in legendary Garou lineages).

Every tribe, excluding Stargazers since they are restricted from putting points in Backgrounds/Fetish, are equally likely to use Grand Klaives. Red Talons prefer to use tooth and claw, but they have been known to see reason for using all types of Klaives and occasionally do so. The only tribes that are adament about only taking in new tribe members that were born of the tribe are Silver Fangs, Fianna, and Shadow Lords. This means a girl child, born of a Fianna parent, could choose to join the Black Furies and she may have inherited a Grand Klaive from her Fianna parent.

To add, the Black Furies have a signature weapon: the Labrys

I'd add Bone Gnawers to the unlikely list. Wendigo and Uktena should probably have

an alternate weapon more typical of the native tribes

Even tribes that have signature weapons still honor and use Klaives and Grand Klaives. If a Black Fury heroine gave a Grand Klaive to her daughter, do you think her daughter would turn down the honor of it? Seriously, no Black Fury would only carry one weapon, anyways.

Bone Gnawer, Wendigo, and Uktena are all likely to use Klaives and Grand Klaives.

The Stargazers actually do have Klaives. You really can's say "The stargazers think __________" because it really doesn't work. A few NPC's are described as having a phurba klaive - based off the Tibetan ritual dagger that severs evil spirits from the body.

According to the Wild West books, the Uktena and wendigo both treated their fetish war bows with the same reverence given to klaives by hte invading Garou (And given the things did Strength +2 damage at -2 difficulty, one can imagine why!) However, both tribes very probably captured klaives from the Wyrmcomers during the tribal wars in that period; and i'd imagine the uktena set their kinfolk to plumbing hte mysteries of silver weaponry. After all, when the major threats in your life are one fallen tribe of Garou and ten tribes of your "brothers," it's only prudent.

Also the tribe LEAST likely to use a klaive would probably be the Children of Gaia; their whole point is to bring the Garou together, and packing around a spade-sized blade of silver isn't very conductive to that.

Stargazers are restricted from using the Fetish Background since they believe using Fetishes would be a violation of their belief system. They cannot use Grand Klaives or Fetish Klaives. They CAN, however, use a regular Klaive that does not have a spirit bound to it as that is not a Fetish.

Children of Gaia honor the Garou Nation and it's heroes. No Child of Gaia would dishonor the Garou by refusing a such an incredible gift as a Grand Klaive if offered. Let's also not forget, Children of Gaia have Ahroun, too. They are defenders of the tribe, but they still need weapons.

Sure, the balance of the blade is totally off, and the material screws up your magic as well as being only used for killing other werewolves that you are supposed to be allied with in a fight to save reality, but it's great that we can ceremonially duel each other to death, right?

Well, klaives are the least of the holes in the game, to be perfectly frank. I don't like the auspice gift system either, as the rolls (and the intent of those rolls) don't really match the occupations indicated by each auspice. But that would sidetrack the thread, I suppose, to get into it. Oh, and let's not forget the whole goal of the setting is off, since if the Weaver is the problem why attack the Wyrm? Because it's traditional? :pppp!

Dammit... Sometimes I honestly think the writers didn't put all that much thought into the whys and wherefores before they put out the game.

No Auspice is going to perfectly match any Garou. Do you demonstrate EVERY characteristic of your Zodiac symbol? The Auspice descriptions are very generalized. Different tribes interpret them in slightly different ways, and individual Garou themselves decide their own definition for them. You'd have to act in a manner that was BLATANTLY against your Auspice for anyone to even call you on it.

The Weaver was not the problem, per se. The Weaver only grew tired of the Wyrm disrupting it's webs, it's organization, basically disordering and destroying everything the Weaver had done. The Weaver reasoned that if it drew the Wyrm into it's web that it would end the cycle. Unfortunately, the Weaver as a logical being, lacking a concept of chaos and variables, was not aware of what the entrapment could do. The Wyrm went insane while trapped.

So, you're kind of right, the Weaver took the first direct action, but since the Weaver never intended harm and is not at all trying to cause the Garou problems, it is not the enemy. You don't make war on someone that made a poor choice through ignorance, and let the real problem get worse. You accept that mistakes get made, recognize the situation, and deal with the actual issue.

Backwards?! No, even cavemen would be brighter than that. This is beyond stupidity and into unadulterated idiocy. Dammit. There was a time I liked the setting, but spent too much time digging into the "philosophy" and game mechanics, only to come out with a massive migraine and cursing myself for buying the Werewolf book used.

I honestly think it's the "I wanna magic sword" bit that gets players to buy klaives with their background points. S'funny, but I value a good set of armor far more than any sword in game. And usually, the armor is more expensive, too. However, Werewolf doesn't have armor. Of any kind, even enchanted. So if it were me making a PC, I'd max out my Stamina and spend my fighting time in dire wolf form, not crinos. Better initiative, and better attack rolls. Same damage, if you check out the stat adjustments and form bonus, you'll see what I mean.

For example, in D&D you spend more on body armor and shields than you ever will for a fancy weapon. Add up the numbers and you'll see what I mean. Sure, it's not glamorous, but armor will save your goofy PC butt far more often than a weapon will.

It seems there is a misunderstanding of pack politics here. The pack MUST HAVE an Alpha. There is no "dueling". There are only dominance challenges, and even those rarely get physical. When they do get physical, it's almost never Klaives of any kind. Even when random fights break out from anger, Klaives are rarely drawn. Drawing a Klaive is basically declaring you are going to kill another Garou, and not many are willing to make so bold a declaration. The Litany requires accepting an honorable surrender if it is given, so deaths in these instances are pretty much unheard of. See? Not such "unadulterated idiocy", huh?

Any overabundance of Grand Klaives in a game is the direct fault of the Storyteller for approving the Character Sheet without any logical basis for doing so. No Storyteller should be allowing multiple characters to just have legendary weapons without a justification for it and the necessary Background points.

Werewolf does have armor, multiple kinds, and the pieces can be made into Fetishes as well. (Enchanted). The Riot Suit will give you 3 more Health levels, or you could be in Crinos using a Klaive and do 20+ damage to the other guy. If you prefer surviving one additional blow before you are knocked unconscious to a potential one hit kill on the enemy, that's your decision. Crinos and Hispo have the same Toughness. Hispo is two times faster, but Crinos does 33% more damage. This may not still be true, but I refuse to deal in this new version of Werewolf.

I definitely never spent more gold on body armor and shields than my weapon in D&D, but then again my character didn't get hit. Lol.

I never understood the concept of werewolves running about armed with silver daggers as well, unless they regularly fought other werewolves in an attempt to outright kill. In the oWoD game, this would only happen with Black Spiral Dancers. So why have them at all, if the Garou are supposed to be fighting banes almost exclusively?

Grand Klaives are not about the silver. They are about the status, power, intimidation factor, and above all, honoring one's legendary ancestors from which the blade came. Grand Klaives are rare and generally stay in Heroic lineages.

Additionally, Grand Klaives and Fetish Klaives both do aggravated damaged against ALL ENEMIES, if they are activated. The second bound spirit in the Grand Klaive may function specifically to drain Gnosis to permanently destroy Banes, or whatever other handy and fun bonus you can manage. Not to mention a Grand Klaive's damage is Strength+4, while a Klaive is Strength+2. So, Crinos + Grand, Fetish, or Regular Klaive= One hit kill every now and again. Also does additional silver damage to Garou. Carrying the Grand Klaive causes you to lose 2 temporary Gnosis. Not too big a deal for a melee character, at least, it never was for mine.

A large percentage of Garou use either Regular or Fetish Klaives regularly. Fetish Klaives with bound spirits also deal aggravated damage to all enemies when activated, and additional silver damage to Garou. Carrying a Klaive causes you to lose 1 temporary Gnosis. Even less of a big deal.

You'll have to forgive me. I've been obsessed with Werewolf for 9 years now. I couldn't let a lot of these misconceptions go unanswered. I'm still trying far too hard to locate an RPG group for it here in Las Vegas, and I'd hate for someone out here to see this forum and be discouraged to the point that they never even try it. Y'all have a good one!

Fixes in red.

First, the industrial revolution don't have an exact date, but we say 1750 as its about then the industry started to be improved in a whole new way.

Secondly, there was much more people before the industrial revolution than most people seem to imagine. Sure, the black plague killed millions of people, but that was mostly around 1340-1360. People soon started mating again.

Here's some numbers for you, also known as demographics. Population around the year 1600.

France 19.000.000

The German areas 16.000.000

Italian areas 13.100.000

England 5.000.000

Spain 8.100.000

Russia 15.000.000

("Dei Europeiske Trolldomsprosessane". Hagen. Det Norske Samlaget 2007.http://www.bokogmedia.no/dei-europeiske-trolldomsprosessane)

Another thing I didn't get, Jeebers, is the notion that Garou should have changed in some direction based on knowledge we have now, as readers. Let me rephrase it in another way: We know narcotics isn't good for us, why won't everyone change their way and stop misusing narcotics? We know that USA is a screwed up society, why won't USA change their practices involving social benefits for their citizens? Why won't USA stop with death penalties? Why won't USA chase the Tea Party movement into the ocean and let them have their tea party along with the Boston tea?

Its easy for me to sit here and judge a whole nation based on my knowledge that might even be wrong. Its not as easy to give up something when you are part of it, and its also difficult to change stubborn people that don't want change. There is also the ethics that forcing change upon someone isn't really solving anything, but just adding to the problem.

As an American, I only have one question here. ARE WE ALLOWED TO DO THAT?!?!? It's a great fricking idea. I'm going to buy a cattle prod right now...

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