Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Ana Mizuki

Klaive or no Klaive?

Recommended Posts

Now, here's an interesting question; What tribes use klaives?

No, it is not as simple as "all of them execpt Bone Gnawers and Glass Walkers". In fact, multiple times in both art and fiction, Glass Walkers are said to posess klaives along with modern weapons. Furthermore, some tribes have their own signature weapons and it would be more likely that these weapons are used intribe than klaives.

Furthermore, garou outside eurasia don't seem the types to use klaives.

So, tribes that are likely to use klaives, in my opinion; Silver Fangs, Fianna, Glass Walkers, Shadow Lords.

Tribes with their own weapons; Silent Striders (D'siadh), Get of Fenris (Warhammers), Black Furies (Labrys)

Tribes that are unlikely to use klaives; Red Talons, Star Gazers, Wendigo, Uktena?

The rest, I'm not sure about.

Edit: Added furies' weapon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now, here's an interesting question; What tribes use klaives?

No, it is not as simple as "all of them execpt Bone Gnawers and Glass Walkers". In fact, multiple times in both art and fiction, Glass Walkers are said to posess klaives along with modern weapons. Furthermore, some tribes have their own signature weapons and it would be more likely that these weapons are used intribe than klaives.

Furthermore, garou outside eurasia don't seem the types to use klaives.

So, tribes that are likely to use klaives, in my opinion; Silver Fangs, Fianna, Glass Walkers, Shadow Lords.

Tribes with their own weapons; Silent Striders (D'siadh), Get of Fenris (Warhammers)

Tribes that are unlikely to use klaives; Red Talons, Star Gazers.

The rest, I'm not sure about.

To add, the Black Furies have a signature weapon: the Labrys

I'd add Bone Gnawers to the unlikely list. Wendigo and Uktena should probably have

an alternate weapon more typical of the native tribes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you ^^

Bone Gnawers are actually sort of curious. While they might not have klaives, they seem to have mock up klaives.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Curator

While I don't think I know Werewolf quite as well, I'd imagine Star Gazers would still use klaives. Isn't their Gauru-Fu predicated on Eastern martial arts and such? There are plenty of weapons in real kung-fu that'd operate similar to klaives so I imagine it'd at least be known for Star Gazers to be practiced in their use if they're martial artists.

For the Uktena and Wendigo, while it might not be a klaive, a ceremonial silver dueling knife would make sense. Very few tribal cultures that I know of never used knives in some fashion for personal combat. One of the few wouldn't be part of the Uktena or Wendigo stock, either - can't really see a Zulu Wendigo off the top of my head. Though Zulu Werewolves sound awesome.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While I don't think I know Werewolf quite as well, I'd imagine Star Gazers would still use klaives. Isn't their Gauru-Fu predicated on Eastern martial arts and such? There are plenty of weapons in real kung-fu that'd operate similar to klaives so I imagine it'd at least be known for Star Gazers to be practiced in their use if they're martial artists.



Not really, StarGazers as a tribe abhor use of fetishes, feeling they are crutches. I think they aren't allowed to even get fetishes in chargen.

As for Kailindo (the changer martial art), it's more Tai-Chi+Kung-Fu than anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Curator

Well kung-fu uses a whole bunch of weapons in its practice, and tai q'i has a few as well. I've been studying both for about a year now and at certain points I'm going to need to study the staff, the jian, the deer-horn knives, and paired fans. At least for Five Animal/Five Family kung fu. Northern Shaolin can be just as crazy.

S'why I could see the Stargazers using some form of klaive-like weapon (if not necessarily a standard fetish klaive). More for its martial importance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Procurator

The Silver Fangs, the Fianna and the Fenrir have the most klaives of all the tribes, because all three were at the frontlines when the White Howlers fell to the Wyrm.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Donor

The stargazers as a tribe abhor fetishes. that said, as they are the tribe of hypocrisy, they're one of the few tribes with a rank 6 fetish weapon. It's a bo-staff and puts klaives to shame against anything that isn't a garou.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Stargazers actually do have Klaives. You really can's say "The stargazers think __________" because it really doesn't work. A few NPC's are described as having a phurba klaive - based off the Tibetan ritual dagger that severs evil spirits from the body.

According to the Wild West books, the Uktena and wendigo both treated their fetish war bows with the same reverence given to klaives by hte invading Garou (And given the things did Strength +2 damage at -2 difficulty, one can imagine why!) However, both tribes very probably captured klaives from the Wyrmcomers during the tribal wars in that period; and i'd imagine the uktena set their kinfolk to plumbing hte mysteries of silver weaponry. After all, when the major threats in your life are one fallen tribe of Garou and ten tribes of your "brothers," it's only prudent.

Also the tribe LEAST likely to use a klaive would probably be the Children of Gaia; their whole point is to bring the Garou together, and packing around a spade-sized blade of silver isn't very conductive to that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Donor

I'd agree on the CoGs rarely having klaives. A silver weapon is optimized for killing other GAROU. Even if they go against BSDs, a fetish designed primarily to go against wyrm creatures would make more sense. A few rare CoGs that are dedicated to to killing spirals might do so, but they'll be rare.

Least likely is probably the Talons. They don't have the knowledge to make the silver part and don't have Kinfolk to do it either. any they did acquire would have come from other tribes... and most tribes would want them BACK!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Jeebers

I never understood the concept of werewolves running about armed with silver daggers as well, unless they regularly fought other werewolves in an attempt to outright kill. In the oWoD game, this would only happen with Black Spiral Dancers. So why have them at all, if the Garou are supposed to be fighting banes almost exclusively?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The garou used to have quite bloody wars between tribes. Klaives also serve as ritualistic weapons, the silver in the signified sacrifice the wielder made ( -1 gnosis).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Jeebers

I dunno, their aggravated damage alone from claws would be enough for that, like doing lethal damage to humans in armor. Using a klaive is the equivalent of using a crossbow against people in medieval armor; goes through them like a hot knife through butter, which is why the Pope once declared them anathema back in the dark ages. Or like using a submachine gun in the middle of a crowd of people. Some things kinda go beyond the pale, y'know?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Klaives and other weapon fetishes are more than just plain weapons, they have spirits in them (Klaives usually have two) that echant their powers. They are also status symbols.

As far as being too much, while they might be too much for simpler banes, anything above Scrag is quite tough and requires force. Larger banes and more powerful Black Spiral Dancer packs require more force and far more sophistecated methods than just claws.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Donor

Aside from fighting BSDs though, the silver content of klaives may actually be a detriment to fighting spirits since it does steal Gnosis.

But some of this seems to be a difference in practice between how the world if portrayed in the books vs what seems to happen in a lot of games. The coooooooool weapon is the Klaive so it turns up more often than it practically should in actual play. It's dramatic! nevermind its also pretty well yelling at other people "I am ready to kill other Garou."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Jeebers

Sure, the balance of the blade is totally off, and the material screws up your magic as well as being only used for killing other werewolves that you are supposed to be allied with in a fight to save reality, but it's great that we can ceremonially duel each other to death, right?

Well, klaives are the least of the holes in the game, to be perfectly frank. I don't like the auspice gift system either, as the rolls (and the intent of those rolls) don't really match the occupations indicated by each auspice. But that would sidetrack the thread, I suppose, to get into it. Oh, and let's not forget the whole goal of the setting is off, since if the Weaver is the problem why attack the Wyrm? Because it's traditional? :pppp!

Dammit... Sometimes I honestly think the writers didn't put all that much thought into the whys and wherefores before they put out the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly, a lot of the "I am a werewolf" and the "I am a spiritual warrior" is poorly emphasized or compartmentalized. The Klaive is a very odd weapon for a werewolf to carry. But then, it is odd for

a primal beast to carry any weapon.

I'll have to go back to the first klaive story to see the reasoning. But it is clearly stated that the Fianna, Silver Fangs, and Get of Fenris use klaives the most.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sure, the balance of the blade is totally off, and the material screws up your magic as well as being only used for killing other werewolves that you are supposed to be allied with in a fight to save reality, but it's great that we can ceremonially duel each other to death, right?

Sadly, yup XD

The garou can be a bit backwards sometimes.

But some of this seems to be a difference in practice between how the world if portrayed in the books vs what seems to happen in a lot of games. The coooooooool weapon is the Klaive so it turns up more often than it practically should in actual play. It's dramatic! nevermind its also pretty well yelling at other people "I am ready to kill other Garou."

I'm of the school of thought that PCs should be special, but sometimes the klaives are a bit ever-present. I once saw a GW who had one and negletted it for the lengh of the entire game.

...Then again, that same game had a wendigo totin' AKs, so it had few snags anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Jeebers

Backwards?! No, even cavemen would be brighter than that. This is beyond stupidity and into unadulterated idiocy. Dammit. There was a time I liked the setting, but spent too much time digging into the "philosophy" and game mechanics, only to come out with a massive migraine and cursing myself for buying the Werewolf book used.

I honestly think it's the "I wanna magic sword" bit that gets players to buy klaives with their background points. S'funny, but I value a good set of armor far more than any sword in game. And usually, the armor is more expensive, too. However, Werewolf doesn't have armor. Of any kind, even enchanted. So if it were me making a PC, I'd max out my Stamina and spend my fighting time in dire wolf form, not crinos. Better initiative, and better attack rolls. Same damage, if you check out the stat adjustments and form bonus, you'll see what I mean.

For example, in D&D you spend more on body armor and shields than you ever will for a fancy weapon. Add up the numbers and you'll see what I mean. Sure, it's not glamorous, but armor will save your goofy PC butt far more often than a weapon will.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing I have to say to argue against that, you are looking far too much into the mechanics and optimality of the setting. Not really why things are the way they are. Klaives are ancestral weapons, to have one is to be of a line that had the honor of wielding one. Among the garou, who generally respect those before them, this is a big thing.

As for the usage, remember that up until recent years, tribes would war against one another, excluding ones like Children of Gaia and Bone Gnawers. Especially the tribes who most often have Klaives, Get of Fenris and the Fianna, fought against one another a lot. Using Klaives also made these fights honorable and less likely for the opposing tribe to take issue. Why, when the Wyrm was around? Because back then, the wyrm really wasn't such a problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Donor

The point is that even beyond the fact that it's good against werewolves, it's still got a spirit of war bound in it, it's still a great honor to wield one, and a master of klaviskar is gonna be stronger in a fight than an equally skilled garou with his claws.

If we're going to reduce everything to simple dots and numbers then why the hell are we playing the game in the first place?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I played, we NEVER saw anyone with a Klave day to day, when you saw one, it was a big deal, a massive deal.

They were worn at important "formal" occasions and when a raid was going. it was a good way to raise expectations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Jeebers

I dunno. I don't see how klaives are more honorable duel weapons, as they bypass all soak rolls. Also, being made of silver, they are incredibly expensive, and screw up the gnosis of you and your packmates. If I were playing a theurge, I'd be ticked that I had a fellow PC hauling one around.

Also, I think it would have been nice if the auspice gifts had dice rolls that complemented the attributes and abilities of each auspice. For example, one would expect Galliards to be charismatic, Ahrouns to be intimidating, Theurges to be perceptive etc. And, since you can buy gifts that are outside your normal spread, I'd restrict each auspice gift to their stated purviews, in order to give players more of a flavor for each auspice and therefore make gameplay feel different for each.

Finally, if the Weaver is the one who went bonkers and into overdrive, why not combat it instead of the Wyrm (which is logically doing its duty)? This would mean combating human civilization, which would radically change the nature of the game, wouldn't it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Donor

Also, being made of silver, they are incredibly expensive,

At 32 USD per ounce I don't see a klaive's blade costing more than a grand or two. With a friends and packmates discount for workmanship it's cheaper than a grey market assault rifle. I think the main issue with Klaives is that tribe leaders don't want everyone to have them - for cultural stability.

When I played, we NEVER saw anyone with a Klave day to day, when you saw one, it was a big deal, a massive deal.

That's a great representation. The klaive is very iconic in the artwork so I can see people getting excited. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
You are commenting as a guest. If you have an account, please sign in.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoticons maximum are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×