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Nightwolf

Fights of werewolf

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I have few question about werewolves powers. They positioned like a powerfull linage. But, werewolves:

1)Unorganized/

2)Have a very little time for Gauru-form.

3)Don't have a normal soc. gifts.

4)They don't have a good fight-abilityes.

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I have few question about werewolves powers. They positioned like a powerfull linage. But, werewolves:

1)Unorganized/

2)Have a very little time for Gauru-form.

3)Don't have a normal soc. gifts.

4)They don't have a good fight-abilityes.

First of all, welcome to Shadownessence! Make yourself at home here.

And now ...

- They are disorganised, until they develop a pack identity and acquire a pack totem. After that, they are as organised as they need to be. Werewolves aren't fighters, as in born and bred just for war. They are hunters and predators, and their hunts, protecting the pack's territory, are organsed.

The Forsaken, however, don't normally get organised at much more than the pack level. The idea of some alpha pack running the whole city, telling all the other packs what to do, is kind of weird to them. And they could not really imagine a global organisation of werewolves. The werewolves gain membership in Tribes simply because they hear the call of a particular Son of Father Wolf in their bones. There isn't exactly a "Global Steering Committee of Iron Masters" meeting in secret in Milan every two years at the Summer Solstice, for example.

- Gauru form is very unstable. If a werewolf stays in the war form for any length of time, he risks Kuruth, going berserk and killing everything in sight until he has to be killed by his own pack to stop him.

- When White Wolf developed these games, they chose Vampire to be the "social" game, focusing on Presence, Manipulation and Composure and the Social Skills and Merits. Werewolf is the "physical" game - it is about Strength, Dexterity and Stamina, and all the Physical Skills and Merits. (Mage: the Awakening is the "mental" game, focusing on Intelligence, Wits and Resolve, and all the Mental Skills and Merits).

- Actually, the werewolves have the same fighting abilities as everybody else. The same range of fighting Skills and physical Merits such as Fighting Styles as all the other characters, plus their own Merits and Gifts from the spirits. A werewolf doesn't have to turn Gauru to hunt and kill efficiently: knowledge can still defeat the foe far more effectively than rending claws, particularly if that knowledge involves a spirit's Ban, or the fight is conducted in the human court of law (Academics (Law) instead of Weaponry).

Edited by Libra

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First of all, welcome to Shadownessence! Make yourself at home here.

Thanks! :D

Vampire to be the "social";Mage: the Awakening is the "mental" game

But not only social and mental. What will wer do (even he is Rahu of Blood talons or Hunters-in-Darkness) when some Gangrel with 3rd Protean or mage-Obrimus from Adamantine errow attaks him?

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But not only social and mental. What will wer do (even he is Rahu of Blood talons or Hunters-in-Darkness) when some Gangrel with 3rd Protean or mage-Obrimus from Adamantine errow attaks him?

Use his head.

Mages and vampires don't have anything to defend against Gifts. Obrimos don't generally have access to Spirit - that'd be Thyrsus, for the most part, and Thyrsus would know how to shapeshift, just like Gangrel.

No good just going Gauru and wading in. They could probably want to hang back, let the werewolf do his thing, then come back with Claws of the Wild for aggravated damage, or Prime and Forces attacks. The mage could even attack at range. All he needs is one bit of fur, a fang, a piece of flesh ...

So the werewolf would have to do the things he does best. As a Rahu, that means thinking tactically. That means bringing in the pack.

That means conjuring up a fire spirit and ordering it through Gifts and Renown to possess that mofo of a vampire and burn it out from the inside.

That means calling in the wolf-blooded, Sleepers as it were, to surround the mage, dogging his every step so he can't invoke vulgar magic without incurring Paradox. And even if he does succeed, those Sleepers would cause his powerful spells to Unravel and go foop.

Finally ... you know what I said about werewolves? About what they're strongest at? They hunt. No matter how powerful that Obrimos or Gangrel, once isolated from the rest of their pack, away from their Hallows and Mana and Herds and Vitae, they're vulnerable. And the werewolf can catch the scent of their blood from any range (maybe with a bit more difficulty in the case of the Gangrel) and track them down. Taking their time. Prodding them in the direction of the waiting pack with the occasional soft howl in the distance, getting closer each time ...

In combat, only the Gauru form is unstable. The Dalu and ur-wolf forms are not unstable. The werewolf can use tactics and Fighting Styles in near-man form and wield weapons; and the ur-wolf form can track, move fast and tear large chunks from an opponent's body with its jaws.

If I think of anything else, I will let you know.

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But Gangrel and Obrimos can think tactically too. In direct combat they are stronger then werewolf. And if they will use their head, werewolf will have no chance.

Edited by Nightwolf

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But Gangrel and Obrimos can think tactically too. In direct combat they are stronger then werewolf. And if they will use their head, werewolf will have no chance.

If everybody used their heads, they wouldn't be fighting in the first place.

In direct combat they are stronger then werewolf.
Er ... no. Direct combat, mano a mano, just throwing down Attribute + Brawl + equipment modifiers or Attribute + Weaponry + equipment modifiers, the werewolf would win. He can shift into Dalu for that extra moment arm and reach, shift into wolf form to evade the blow, and turn into near-wolf form and tear great chunks out of the other guy.

Remember, each form the wolf shifts into alters his physical stats.

Dalu (near-human): Strength +1, Stamina +1, Manipulation –1, Size +1, Health +2, Speed +1, +2 to perception rolls.

Gauru (BUFF): Strength +3, Dexterity +1, Stamina +2, Size +2, Health +4, Initiative +1, Speed +4, Armor 1/1, inflict lethal damage (+1 bonus to claw attacks, +2 to bite attacks), +3 to perception rolls, wound penalties ignored and no unconsciousness rolls made, –2 to resist Death Rage, fail most Social and Mental tasks

Urshul (dire wolf): Strength +2, Dexterity +2, Stamina +2, Manipulation –3, Size +1, Health +3, Initiative +2, Speed +7, +3 to perception rolls, inflict lethal damage, big and fast, can bite for lethal damage without having to grapple first.

Urhan (wolf form): Dexterity +2, Stamina +1, Size –1, Initiative +2, Speed +5, +4 to perception rolls, inflict lethal damage with bite attack

Note: If an Attribute modifier takes the Attribute above 5 ... so be it. That means your mage could be facing a Gauru with Strength 7, Stamina 6 ... much stronger than either the vamp or the mage.

Plus, even if wounded, the brute can regenerate in seconds. Doesn't even need to waste any juice. "Regeneration always occurs at the beginning of a character’s action in a turn. All werewolves regenerate one point of bashing damage per turn. This healing occurs regardless of whether an Uratha rests. She regenerates bashing damage at this rate even in the heat of battle, as an automatic, reflexive action."

The Gangrel would have to spend Vitae, and the mage would likely have to spend Mana to recover as quickly as the werewolf - and then the wolf can come in as a Gauru form for the kill, once the other guys' juice has been depleted.

The werewolf would only regenerate lethal injuries through spending Essence. Fair enough. But if all the other guy has is bashing damage, he can forget it. The werewolf can just let them pummel him a bit, shrug off the bruises, and unload one swipe of a great, furry arm that could rip the other guy's head clean off.

Even if he can only stay in Gauru for a few turns, those turns are all the werewolf would ever need to turn a vamp into dust and a mage into kedgeree.

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Why not? Soldier mast not be stupid. If Blood talon can use tactic, why Gangrel can't?

The Gangrel is saddled with a major flaw, a Clan curse: dice pools based on Intelligence and Wits, from memorising things to doing research, cannot roll 10 Again. Also, any 1s rolled deduct from successes rolled. Perception rolls based on Wits are unaffected by this restriction, but essentially they have a Beast that is as strong as the Kuruth, and it clouds up their tactical thinking like nobody's business.

Also, one other thing - against the Gangrel, the werewolf has one killer advantage.

He can fight the Gangrel during the day. The Gangrel can't venture out under the sun without burning to a greasy crisp.

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:D OK, but vampires hitmans isn't only Gangrel. Daeva with Selerety and Potens may be more dangerous. But it don't matter.What werewolves can use against different mindcontrol-abilllityes?

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I can't comment in great detail, my knowledge of the mechanics is shaky.

The argument that Werewolves are underpowered in combat is not new. But, what I will say is, the world rarely throws up fair combats. Largely because no one wants them. Both sides will cheat spy etc.etc. Raw power will not determine how fights go in your game... well... I'm being presumptuous there... but it shouldn't.

I will also add - its deliberate. Uratha are meant to be hunters, not warriors. They need to think. Although it does arguably challenge the idea this is the game all about the physical attributes.

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First of all hello,this is my first post in these forums.I'm an active roleplayer for quite a few years now,although I don't have much experience inn the World of Darkness,old or new.I've only played half a Vampire : Dark Ages campaign as far as oWoD is concerned,but 1 year ago I decided to give W:tF a try and I introduced myself to the nWoD.I haven't even thought of playing another game after this.This topic seems to have gone a bit cold,but the original post has some points of view I disagree with so I'd like to express my opinion as a new player in this whole setting,with some experience on the specific game.

I have few question about werewolves powers. They positioned like a powerfull linage. But, werewolves:

1)Unorganized/

2)Have a very little time for Gauru-form.

3)Don't have a normal soc. gifts.

4)They don't have a good fight-abilityes.

1) Unorganized? Not necessarily. The idea of forming a "protectorate" is not unknown to werewolves,especially since the Forsaken are under constant threat of Pure attacks.That of course doesn't mean that a Forsaken protectorate is a heavenly thing. Disputes between tribes or even packs are an every-day thing and also,the formation of a protectorate doesn't find all Uratha included in it comfortable with this. Point is,are they strong enough to do something about it,via either politics ( who said that Werewolf is a game based on physical attributes? ) or raw muscle?

Moving a step down,tribes in a certain area can also be extremely organized ( monthly moots , events -> Hunters in Darkness in Shadows of the UK , loved that one , etc. ). Some Uratha might go as far as to go packless , claiming that "my tribe is my pack".

As far as the organization of the pack goes, 'nuff said. I've roleplayed Vampire with a group of real-life friends,all of us playing different clans,and there was no coordination,no cooperation,nothing.It sucked.Everyone was doing what was best for his clan,taking the spirit of teamwork away.Sure,it's not a game where we all hug and sit around the fire having beers and chit-chatting. But that's not Werewolf either. Your Blood Talon Rahu,who also happens to be your Alpha,will eagerly stand his ground,facing a horde of Beshilu all alone,just to give your Irraka character a chance to get away with an important message of what's going on in your territory.He would die for whatever he considers family,but he will also not hesitate to rip your throat out if you disobey a direct order or question a strong,sound strategic plan.The pack is a beautiful thing,simply because in my opinion,it's the core of roleplaying as a team.

Of course I'm not implying that this can happen everywhere ( again the Shadows of the UK book, mentioning that the British Forsaken severely outnumber the Pure,but lack organization ),but that doesn't mean it can't happen.

2) Seriously,why is Gauru so important,when you got Urshul and Dahlu? Do not forget that being an Uratha is a blessing and a curse at the same time. It's just the way it is. But,how often is your character in DIRE need of shifting into Gauru ? In my opinion,when it comes to fighting in Werewolf , it's all about two things : a ) The balance of the fight ( Storyteller's job ) and b ) The level of teamwork. I learned this the hard way,yes,when my pack of 7 got raped by 3 Gangrel elders.But you know what? It was not the Storyteller's fault,or the game mechanics that almost wiped us. It was our mistakes as players.We didn't work as a pack,so we just failed. Same thing happened when we fought a Lesser Jaggling when trying to locate a locus as cabs. Sure,they were difficult fights ( our Storyteller was not kind at all when it came to fighting,luckily the game was way more focused on roleplaying than fighting ), but that doesn't mean that Werewolves are weak. And in my opinion,there's no need to compare Werewolf with Vampire or Mage or Hunter. Different games,different roles. Why would Uratha bother with the undead in the first place? But even if they did,when it comes to game mechanics,it's always on the Storyteller.If he wants to kill you,he will.Dueling a standard Werewolf character with a Vampire or a Mage is totally useless. This is not World of Warcraft, this is the World of Darkness.

3)I totally disagree with this one. First of all, there are quite a few powerful social gifts,and some of them are very easy to purchase. But then again,why are you so worried about social gifts? Do you plan on Dominating a human? What for? Social encounters are all about roleplaying. If you can't do that,the gifts will not help you. Werewolves interact with the supernatural more often than they do with the Herd,not only because that's their role,but because most of them choose not to live among them. The Herd must not know is a serious sin and combining this with the penalty all Uratha have when interacting with humans...Well you get the point. Being social among Uratha? That's one of the parts I enjoyed the most in this game.Again I'm just saying,when it comes to roleplaying,Gifts are not everything. It's the way you play your character,his flaws,his strengths,his inner struggles that make this game so epic,and so tragic at the same time.

4)Game mechanics again.You need awesome gifts? Yes,there are some awesome gifts and rites,but they are hard to purchase.You know what? How about you take ANY ability you want,and I'll just roll an Irraka Iron Master with a sniper rifle and a silver bullet.So while you're at McDonald's buying burgers for the whole pack,thinking "Wow,I'm so awesome,I got so many good abilities!" , I'll just fire my weapon once from 1 mile away. And if you don't get my point,then I all I'm trying to say is that you don't need MANY good abilities,just the ones your character needs.

These are just personal opinions,and since I'm still learning about WoD and actually starting my own Werewolf campaign in a week,any constructive criticism is more than welcome. :)

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