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Crossover adventuring into the Shadowlands?

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Topics aside on if it can actually be done or not, I indend to have some players (all WOD supernaturals) end up in the Shadowlands as non-wraiths. What I would like to know is, would disciplines, gifts, etc still work? Or how can I quick-fit it without having my players end up making wraith characters?

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Procurator

Never use the Entropy Sphere in the Underworld. It produces pure Oblivion, which is sure to piss off wraiths and attract Spectres. First we need to know what the players are. Then we can help you better.

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Vampires are basically dead, so I'd imagine their powers would work just fine. Blood becomes an issue though. Unless they have humans with them,l theres no blood to be found in the Shadowlands.

Werewolves are already able to enter the Dark Umbra (Silent Striders), and I think their Gifts would work just fine. Oblivion might even be analagous to the Wyrm, or linked to it in some way (maybe they are aspects of each other).

Mages would have the perhaps easiest time of all the supernaturals to my mind. Many of their magics are able to affect the Shadowlands (Spirit, Entropy).

Changelings might survive . The Underworld can be a terriffic source of dark Glamour, and Wraiths and Changelings feed in very similiar ways. The Sluagh are especially well suited for something like this.

Demons are another contender for the easiest survival in the Shadowlands. Slayers have lots of powers to affect Wraiths, and they actually created the Shadowlands (which they call Haven).

If you need something more specific, you could always share the specific group and what strengths and weaknesses they have.

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Thanks for that, guys - I tend to be generous to player in terms of rules. By the sounds of it, nothing would directly prevent a PC from using their gifts/powers/disciplines/etc except where something could be 'offensive' to the Wraiths which would result in consequence rather than preventing it from being done and of course the more logistical/indirect problems of 'you are stuck with the blood you have, feed on the party instead' for vampires. Hmmmm is magic vulgar in the Shadowlands? Or still subject to Paradox?

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Donor

All the Umbras are free of Paradox for mages, but they can impose penalties on magics that are out of tune with the mage's surroundings. For example, healing someone in the Shadowlands is probably more difficult than normal, whereas Mind magics to read someone's emotions might be a bit easier.

The Entropy sphere, on the other hand, is more than just 'offensive.' It's like dropping a nuclear warhead on something you need a flyswatter to kill. *Everything* in the Shadowlands is thoroughly saturated with entropy, and that power has a voracious life of its own. When a mage tries to manipulate it, the power answers them so readily that their every thought and action can be blown out of proportion. An attempt to do something as simple as observe probabilities could tip those odds in reaction to the mage's expectations and change the dynamics of the situation. Attempting to actually *do* something with Entropy risks anything up to and including creating a localized Maelstrom as the energy comes screaming up from the Labyrinth to answer their call. At the least, working with Entropy will certainly increase the mage's Jhor taint. At worst...get creative.

Now, that kind of power is an awfully heady thing. Mages spend their entire lives struggling to attain a fraction of it, and are forever getting slapped down by Paradox for it. In the Shadowlands, it's handed out to an Entropy mage like candy. And entropy (as wraiths know far too well) can be dangerously seductive. If I were running such a thing, I'd play that up almost Shadow-style, as if the fabric of the Shadowlands itself were reaching out to tempt them.

While these effects are described in some degree in the Euthanatos Traditionbook, I don't think mechanics were ever offered. So to simulate these effects, I would do something like offer free dice on Entropy-related magic rolls--*not* difficulty bonuses, and here's why: because while Entropy comes easily to a mage's call, in the Shadowlands it is not easily controlled. If a mage attempts an Entropy roll and succeeds, then he can bring tremendous force to bear on a situation. But if he fails, the energy rises up but does its own thing--maybe creating a warped, undesirable version of his intended effect, providing Angst to nearby Shadows and Spectres, or manifesting a creature out of free-floating plasm. If a mage *botches* an Entropy roll, it could open a nihil...or see "Maelstrom." In a situation where there's already a lot of entropic energy flying around, I might even *raise* the difficulty (along with the dice pool) on grounds that it's already going wild and the mage will have even more trouble imposing his will on it.

And of course, it does also attract Spectres regardless of any other effects, because they can feel Oblivion on the move whether it's controlled or not.

All of this can be averted, of course, simply by not using the Entropy sphere. And maybe that's all more complex than you're looking for, but I always like to have a good time with this kind of thing.

When it comes to werewolves, Silent Striders and also Silver Fangs who belong to the Ivory Priesthood lodge can step sideways into the Shadowlands. Now, that's normally supposed to be tricky and possibly a bit dangerous, but you can just hand-wave that if it suits your purposes. If you want them to get stuck there for a little while, you could also say that it's a ritual that got screwed up so that they'll need to work to undo it and get home.

Entropy and the Wyrm are basically analogous. The Wyrm is meant to be the natural force of death and destruction. Entropy is the chaos of the system breaking down. But the Wyrm is supposedly entropy gone berserk. So to a Garou, the Shadowlands would probably smell like varying degrees of Wyrm taint, depending on how corrupted any given thing is. For example, an old relic tavern would most likely seem fairly straightforwardl. It's just the memory of a dead building shaped out of spiritual material. Garou see that all the time in the Umbra; it's just sadder here (actually, in describing such a building, I would also describe the emotions PCs feel emanating from such a building--the emotions that were invested in it during its existence which keep it extant in the Shadowlands). But Spectres, which are twisted by Oblivion into unnatural things, would certainly strike them as tainted. In general, Garou Gifts probably work pretty much the same as they always do. Rage may or may not be affected, depending on what you think it is. It's certainly a powerful emotional energy, so spending Rage will probably attract wraiths who're attuned to anger. The Shadowlands might arguably fuel a Garou's Rage, letting them gain it back more quickly as they're surrounded by reminders of everything they think is wrong with the world, or making the threat of frenzy more immediate.

Rituals, however, probably frequently won't work, since the power of rituals comes from the spirits the Garou commune with. Most of the spirits Garou are used to don't live in the Shadowlands (exceptions might include Owl and his brood, since Owl is a psychopomp with strong ties to the dead; perhaps Uktena, whose knowledge reaches strange planes; and also Whippoorwill, who is likewise a psychopomp, but one of the bad guys). If they attempt a ritual, you might choose to have it draw the attention of *something*...but whether it's anything that'd be sympathetic to Garou is up to you.

Changelings seem to be largely unfazed by the nature of the Shadowlands, their essential nature being unaffected by the implications of mortality. But among the fae, only Sluagh can hear the voices of the dead.

Ah, which reminds me of something. One major point about the Shadowlands is that the living don't go there. Not that they can't walk among the dead, but in a way, a creature that is alive cannot truly stand in the realm of the dead. We're told that life exudes power there which keeps wraiths at bay. Again, no mechanics were ever specifically offered on this phenomenon, but you might consider living beings as having their own personal Shroud, like they're standing in a tiny little pocket realm of their own that's generated by the force of their own life, so that if wraiths want to try to do something to them, they must breach the Shroud first. You might choose to make this harder with Garou, who are not only alive but *aggressively* so and filled with the power of an entirely different Umbra.

Vampires have no such limitation or protection, because they're already dead in the ways that matter. But according to the standard rules, a vampire who steps into the spirit worlds has no blood, because everything about a being is transmuted into spirit-stuff when they step into a spirit world. Vampires who know Necromancy can get around this little issue, or you could choose to simply hand-wave it, which frankly is what we do. Now, it's true that aside from any other members of the group, there won't be any replacement blood to be had even if you do hand-wave that issue, but some Necromantic powers allow them to drink the Pathos of wraiths and convert it into a working substitute for vitae. A vampire who knows Necromancy is a frightening force in the Shadowlands, but also a target, because wraiths talk to each other and they hear about the Giovanni.

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Procurator

Changelings are living dreams, so you might want to toss something like the aggravated quirk flaw from the Haunter's Guildbook at them. Being alive make in general makes you stand out among the dead, which is bad if there are Spectres, or greedy / powerful wraiths about. The players may become sickly and their powers might become more and more warped the longer they stay in the Underworld.

Depending on how much of a bastard you want to be you can use the rules for Qlippothic Spheres -- where the magic works, but the effect is detrimental to the subject. i.e. healing a wound with the Qlippothic Life Sphere with result in massive scar tissue, etc.

Cool post Annael!

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Adding to the bite on the rear for Mages is the fact that it might well, in the hands of a truly devious Storyteller, require using the Entropy sphere to get into or out of the Shadowlands. The Agama Sojurn of the Euthanatos certainly comes to mind here. It can be hella hard just to get into and out of the Shadowlands, to say nothing of doing anything while you are there.

Life magic would be at least a +2 difficulty, Entropy would be a -2 difficulty, but as was already pointed out brings all kinds of problems of its own. All magic would be coincidental, but using any magic in the Shadowlands is probably going to increase your Entropic resonance. Heck, just going there might do that.

Wraiths (or Spectres) versed in the art of Phantasm can probably do all kinds of terrible things to Changelings if they figure out what they are. Having somebody with Necromantic arts nearby is probably a good idea.

Werewolves are full to the brim with tasty, tasty Rage that many Spectres might well like to suck out of them. Usury would probably make it happen. To say nothing of the Wyrmish things that might lurk in between the Umbra and the Shadowlands - and the fact that the whole place is probably extremely Wyrm tainted from the Garou perspective.

Vampires actually don't have that much trouble once they get to the Shadowlands. The hard part for them is learning how to get there. At the very least, they will likely be in dutch to the Giovanni or the Tremere for teaching them the secret. And of course there is the very real chance of running into deceased victims - or in some of my PC's cases, a Circle of deceased Witch Hunters.

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Donor

You know, I always wondered what'd happen if a Sandman tried to use Phantasm on a changeling. I mean, a wraith can manipulate dreams with Phantasm, but changelings are natives of dream. I don't if it'd be healthy to screw with that. One thing worth noting is that descriptions of the "sand" the Sandmen use to spin their illusions and how it's gathers make it sound an awful lot like Glamour or dross...so they might actually be reinforcing a changeling by trying to use it on them!

Ghosts don't usually actually drain emotional energy. They simply feed off the excess that humans radiate when in a worked-up state. Of course, with Rage you conveniently have an actual measurable statistic to work with...but the power of it is such that the Werewolf book phrased it something like, the most wrathful human who ever lived has nothing on a werewolf with even a single point of Rage. So, yeah, that's a lot of emotional power. At the very least, it can't be a 1 to 1 correspondence. What I'd do is say that every time a Garou spends a point of Rage, any nearby wraith with a wrathful Passion can try to gather some Pathos from it. Also worth remembering is that spectres aren't the only ghosts who might be attuned to anger. Not every Passion a wraith has is a gentle or positive one.

There are some theories that Rage is tainted by the Wyrm, though, in which case sucking up Pathos from Rage might also fuel a wraith's Angst. What fun!

Avenger's got an interesting point about magic and entropic resonance. Actually, this might be one of those situations where the Sphere setup doesn't address the situation. The Entropy sphere manipulates entropy directly, sure. But lots of things manipulate it indirectly. If you use the Matter sphere to disintegrate a wall or the Life sphere to rip the man-body, that's entropic. If you use the Matter sphere to create a wall or the Life sphere to heal, on the other hand, that's not. So you might give the difficulty bonus (and the entropic resonance) to any magics employed toward a destructive or "breaking down" effect (note that something like creating a fireball wouldn't count, since you're actually manipulating or creating energy for that), whereas magics used to observe or manipulate would be neutral, and magics to create or reinforce would take the penalty because they're moving against the tide of the Shadowlands. The explosively dangerous power of the Entropy sphere, though, would remain confined to that, since it's the only Sphere that directly manipulates the stuff of the underworld. Other magics are only riding on its coattails.

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Sounds like Freddy Krueger is going to be in for a big surprise when the kid whose dreams he is messing with suddenly turns into a fully-grown troll and kicks the living crap out of him! Actually, I like this a great deal.

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Curator

I love that! Or better yet an angry Redcap who starts biting off his limbs.

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Topics aside on if it can actually be done or not, I indend to have some players (all WOD supernaturals) end up in the Shadowlands as non-wraiths. What I would like to know is, would disciplines, gifts, etc still work? Or how can I quick-fit it without having my players end up making wraith characters?

Wraith makes for great crossover games. Nearly every other character type has merits or flaws related to wraith, OWoD Vampires have Necromancy rules for both Necromancy as a Discipline levels alternate levels 1-5 and 6-10,other necromancy related disciplines and at least 5 other paths of awesome Necromancy rewritten to model after Thaumaturgy Paths with rituals! Not mention all the other rituals, Necromancy - like Thaumaturgy Paths, violent wraith or spectre producing deaths, 3 Clans and at least 1 other blood line all specializing in Necromancy! They even have a ritual specifically for drawing a door in chalk to go to the Shadowlands and back Beetlejuice style! They usually own ancient artifacts or antiquities collected over the centuries, some of which could really be Fetters. The very presence of the Undead should part the Fog or Shroud or otherwise lower the the Shroud's rating to Wraiths and break down that separates the Quick from the Shadowland's Dead. Risen can and frequently do purchase Vampire Disciplines and fuel them with Pathos instead of blood. They might be mistaken for vampires. Vampires like to hang out in freak'n cemeteries, slums, old buildings and hospitals all at night doing evil and raiding blood banks. Vampire havens and Hang outs make great Haunts, unless they know a lot of the right kinds Necromancy...

Werewolf has built in crossover the Oblivion is the Wyrm, the Black Labyrinth of the Spectres IS the Black Spiral that Black Spiral Dancers speak of...same for Nephandi Mages. Mage crossovers are easy if the Mages have enough Spheres, magic should never be vulgar in the Shadowlands, Likewise the WYRD is totally in effect for changelings who show their Fae Seemings and have their chimera most of everyone's powers should work, just a bit differently. Entropy is uncontrollably powerful, the Life Sphere difficult or impossible with out the Qlippothic versions of spheres in the shadowlands. Rage should totally give Angst and Pathos, Glamour should get along with with Pathos. The living and especially Werewolves and Changelings stick out because they are bright, colorful and positively glow, especially Changelings and Werewolves, this could work for or against them...

Changelings can crossover nicely. They talk about it some in the Sandman's Guild Book. Phantasm is ultra powerful in the Changeling's Dreaming, and sometimes the Changeling's Dreaming is accessible to Wraiths through the Dreams of others. Sandmen can Ravage by accident or be gifted with objects from inside changelings Dreams that turn into really powerful Dream Sand, colorful clothing and objects, even powerful Wraith Artifacts. Wraith Arcanoi can benefit Changelings if they interact with wraiths, Keening for example or any Arcanoi that grants or lets Pathos change hands should work to take or generate/grant changeling Glamour in abundance. Sluagh and wraiths talk all the time or should. Likewise Sandmen should find Changelings very curious and see the Dreaming as an escape from a cursed afterlife, almost like a heaven just for their Guild...

I could go on and about how easy it is to have wraiths or spectres NPC's or characters to really add depth to those merits and flaws of other It's true that the actually visiting the Shadowlands or realms of the dead for living characters should be difficult - but only on the way back. Think of Orpheus's journey to save Eurydice and how he was forbidden to look back on his way out, look at the consequences they both faced when he broke Hades' Laws...Dying is too easy, living is much harder. Hope this stuff helps

-Juggling John

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Donor

All good stuff, Juggling John! One quibble, though:

the Black Labyrinth of the Spectres IS the Black Spiral that Black Spiral Dancers speak of...same for Nephandi Mages.

Not so. The Black Spiral is the Deep Umbral Realm of Malfeas. There's some reason to believe that on some level it may connect to or parallel the Labyrinth beneath the Shadowlands, but they're two different places. Still, I agree that there's definitely some mileage to be gotten out of playing on the similarities there. No reason that werewolves shouldn't suspect there's something fishy going on.

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Annael,

I think I would enjoy debating this point with you, I'm pretty sure if I unpacked more books and did research over again, I could find published source materials to support several view points, yours and mine both included. I've always liked having the different Umbral Realms connect or spill over into each other sometimes. So, to me if The Black Spiral and the Labyrinth aren't the same huge interdimensional maze of evil, with the same hungry force at the center "The Wyrm"- they should definitely be connected. I imagine that If you were to somehow survive entering the Labyrinth from the Shadowlands, say mining for Stygian ore and you delved too deeply and got lost enough, (without being warped too badly or destroyed in some battle) you might get really hopelessly lost, take some really wrong turning and end up traveling to the Black Spiral and beyond to a different realm or maybe the reverse happens. Say some insane Nephandi or Black Spiral Dancers wanders into the Labyrinth (and up) from the Spiral. This could be how some of the really nasty villains and NPC's, travel. In fact I'm sure there are source materials to cover traveling that way.

Btw, Reading some of the other responses over again, I have to say it takes the Spirit Sphere to at least 3 or 4 dots to go to the Shadow lands or any alternate plane of existence for a Mage, not entropy! Creative idea, but using any level of Entropy to replace Spirit or Correspondence makes no sense at all to me. Likewise Entropy really isn't always such a negative destructive force, it'll just tend to resonate that way in the realms of the dead. I don't usually directly equate the Entropy Sphere with Oblivion or the Wyrm. (That could be just my own weirdness...)

Thanks for getting my mind working on this kinda stuff again, I'm having fun.

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I'd say you have to combine Entropy and Spirit to tear open the Veil and step through to the Shadowlands. Pure Spirit simply isn't enough.

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Some awesome feedback here, thanks guys. My mind is reeling with ideas on this and I find it very interesting on how the mages and werewolves are impacted. I am curious how the concept of a 'personal shroud' would work? Would it be a matter of a PC being oblivious to what is happening around them and perhaps just have feelings of severe creepiness? Maybe some strange manefestations happening around them?

Also, how to handle the lure of using the enthropy sphere? How do I 'encourage' a mage to start leaning that way while in the Shadowlands? I am also thinking that it would be fun to encourage the garou the want to spend rage and end up as a kind of 'beacon' to attract spectres and dodgy wraiths. Also, how would non-wraiths be affected in the shadowlands by things like the Tempest or a Maelstrom? Would they be able to use relics/artifacts while there? How can I ensure those items stay in the Shadowlands?

Alas there are no Changelings to drag kicking and screaming into this. I also welcome any other suggestions on what I should or should not allow.

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Procurator

Relics and Artifacts automatically evaporate from the Skinlands back into the Underworld when removed, so that shouldn't be a problem. Being caught in a Maelstrom would strengthen a given PC's dark side, or possibly just eat away at their substance (or magic); killing them if they don't find shelter. Low-level Maelstroms feel like being stung by sand from the beach on a windy day, they might not even notice the damage until it's too late...

The Tempest is pure sensory overload. Throw hallucinations, illusions, after-images, scraps of dead memories at them, anything you can think of. They "sky" above may be "haze and glare", flatly lit like twilight, and if you want to get really nasty, have the half-formed souls of the dead that make up the "water" invade their physical bodies.

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Donor

Creative idea, but using any level of Entropy to replace Spirit or Correspondence makes no sense at all to me.

Yeah, Entropy isn't so much about space or places or manipulating any version of stuff that'd pass for matter. Seems like Spirit should do for getting through the Shroud (providing you fulfill certain requirements of at least playing dead). Plasm...could probably be shaped with Mind, actually, since it's so responsive to mental and emotional energies. Prime is also always a way of working with and shaping any pattern. You *could* shape it with Entropy, I think, because everything in the underworld has an entropic quality to it, but it's probably safer to do it a different way. I'd say you could still use Spirit on plasm, but it'd take a certain knowledge of how ghost-stuff works to get it right (put those Lores to work!).

Likewise Entropy really isn't always such a negative destructive force, it'll just tend to resonate that way in the realms of the dead. I don't usually directly equate the Entropy Sphere with Oblivion or the Wyrm. (That could be just my own weirdness...)

No, it's the nature of entropy, and it's the nature of the Wyrm. The force of entropy itself is the breakdown of order--the increase of chaos in a system. Mages can add entropy and subtract it, either increasing chaos/breaking of bonds/decay/destruction or decreasing it to add predictability/strengthen bonds/shore up weaknesses, as well as passively observe its effects. You don't have to *use* the Sphere in a negative or destructive way, but by definition it is manipulating the force of destruction.

I am curious how the concept of a 'personal shroud' would work? Would it be a matter of a PC being oblivious to what is happening around them and perhaps just have feelings of severe creepiness? Maybe some strange manefestations happening around them?

I hadn't thought about that. I think that once they've pierced the true Shroud, they'd be able to see and interact. But it might offer a resistance that must be overcome before they either affect or are affected by anything that belongs to the Underworld--like a force field. I'd just use Wraith rules for piercing the Shroud, at a low difficulty. But...it could be fun to play with it a bit, distorting perceptions a touch and that kind of thing. Can't let *everything* go in favor of the breathing people.

Also, how to handle the lure of using the enthropy sphere? How do I 'encourage' a mage to start leaning that way while in the Shadowlands? I am also thinking that it would be fun to encourage the garou the want to spend rage and end up as a kind of 'beacon' to attract spectres and dodgy wraiths. Also, how would non-wraiths be affected in the shadowlands by things like the Tempest or a Maelstrom? Would they be able to use relics/artifacts while there? How can I ensure those items stay in the Shadowlands?

I'd say that the mini-Shroud would protect living people from some effects of Maelstroms, but that would only blunt them, not eliminate them entirely (use it like soak dice would be my advice). Saint Michael scores with her point that Maelstroms do more than just physically damage you. They're entropy winds; they could inflict bad luck, damage delicate things, stir bad memories and dark thoughts. I wouldn't think a living person would develop a fully functioning Shadow (oh, but vampires! I'd do some truly diabolical things with the Beast, and yeah now that I think of it I'd get creative with Rage too), but they might well find that their darker impulses are stronger than usual (if a PC has any Flaws or Derangements, play them up; also take the opportunity to play up past events in-game or in the character's background, and if they've been displaying appropriately nasty, upset, or depressed attitudes or tendencies, run with those as well).

How to tempt a mage? You're running a game in the Shadowlands; surely you're familiar with the rules for Shadowguiding. If I were GMing, I'd take some pages out of the Shadow playbook, like Shadow dice ("Hey, Jim, you know if you did that effect with Entropy, you'd get four extra dice in your pool?" and let the player decide whether that's tempting in the face of increased difficulty and the threat of botching), maybe a few appropriate Thorns, and just...floating ideas. You could point out how easy it'd be to wipe out the bad guys with an Entropy effect during a fight, or how some potentially intriguing bit of knowledge that could be gained, or how a mage could use Entropy to make a wraith ally's Shadow shut up. Don't say, "You're tempted to..." because they might not be and it's irritating to have someone else tell you what your character thinks or feels. Just say stuff and let them tempt themselves.

I'm not saying that they would develop a Shadow. It's just...there's so much ambient power, and it's so ready to *do* something. It might just be me, but I've always liked to play with how a mage's magic is reflexive. My way of seeing it is that a mage's willpower isn't necessary to *have* the magic; it's necessary to keep it from running amok (house rule is that if a mage's Willpower falls below his Arete, the extra Arete dice become Storyteller property: a fragment of the mage's power that now goes off without his deliberately willing it). An Entropy mage in the Shadowlands still thinks, feels, reacts, fears, and wonders about things. Even if he's deliberately keeping his magic in check, he can't control himself all the way through. Stray thoughts leak out around the edges, and in the Shadowlands they might be readily answered: visions of the future (that might not be true), voices of lost loved ones (that might only be what *he* thinks they'd say), that kind of thing.

Garou are almost *too* easy to mess with. If the players are playing them well, the poor critters won't know whether they're coming or going. *Everything* smells like the Wyrm. Is it good or bad? Is this natural? Can they destroy it? Should they destroy it? Sometimes punching stuff only makes the problem worse, so what do they do when they can't bring their physical power to bear? If their Rage starts stirring, should they trust it or try to resist it? And what in Gaia's name do they do when every single freaking wraith they meet also has a would-be spectre living inside it?

The Tempest is pure sensory overload. Throw hallucinations, illusions, after-images, scraps of dead memories at them, anything you can think of. The "sky" above may be "haze and glare", flatly lit like twilight, and if you want to get really nasty, have the half-formed souls of the dead that make up the "water" invade their physical bodies.

So awesome! Yeah, do some of that stuff. Really make the place come alive (well, you know) around the characters--scary and weird and a completely different environment from anything they're used to. The sky of the underworld is described as being dark, with the twinkling lights of nihils shining in it. I don't know whether there's a sun or moon. I don't know how the place is lit. But everything that forms out of the plasm has some kind of emotional resonance to it, which could radiate out into anyone who touches it: buildings, relics, the "water," the sand, even the wraiths who populate the place. Pick up a beer mug at the old bar and it gives you a feeling of good cheer and companionship. Grab a wraith's arm to catch her attention and get swamped by a feeling of regret.

Actually, most things in the underworld are made of wraiths. Some stuff has actually been soulforged, but a lot of things--the Tempest, the ground, are made of the shredded remains of wraiths that either got ground up by entropy or never quite formed entirely in the first place. So, you know, you can't really get away from the sensations.

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I am seriously wondering why I have never played Wraith before...what an amazing setting!!! Thanks guys, you have enspired the evilness in me.

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I remember an optional rule for Garou in Ghost towns(a Werewolf: The Wild West and Wraith crossover book) that says garou can gain a shadow while in the shadowlands with their rage score as their angst score.

also i remember from the Mage Book of Worlds ( and it may have been updated in Infinite Tapestry but i can't remember) that Time and Correspondence don't work because of how close you are to the tempset. also seems like matter was at increase difficulty as wells as life. and of course entropy is easier but a big no no because it'll draw specters.

The thing i always wondered about changelings in the shadowlands is: While they are physically present in the shadowlands, is their Fae seeming still in a corresponding part of the dreaming? As in a changeling in the skinlands standing nearby would see the changelings Fae seeming in the Dreaming but see nothing in the skinlands(waking world).

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Procurator

A changeling's fae mien can't be divorced from her mortal seeming, while in the Underworld, the changeling's two halves are only present in the Underworld; much as changelings who enter the Dreaming vanish from the Autumn World entirely. Now, I can see Kithain viewing the entirety of the Shadowlands/ Tempest / various Dark Kingdoms, etc. as a very large and complex series of Nightmare Realms. And the nightmare kith - sluagh, redcaps, Thallain -- get lessened difficulty when dealing with Nightmare Realms. Changelings who stay too long within the Shadowlands might die, or become locked between life and death as bean sidhe (banshee).

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Donor

Thread necromancy yay!

Any further thoughts on this topic?

At the moment we are drawing a long running campaign to an end, and one of the main protagonists has enlisted the help of the dead as the end times draw near

As is the Time of Judgement ive made the Shroud weak as hell, with the Shadowlands showing through in places, and Nihils erupting everywhere. This (vampire) protagonist has a wraith that owes him, who is helping him track down a (long dead) friend.

At the moment they are just going round the skinlands, talking to wraiths in the shadowlands via powers (or the wraith using powers). But I want him to be pulled in eventually and travel through the tempest, finally meeting his friend at the end (using the shadowlands as a shortcut as it were, to cross from America to Germany without all the pesky annoyances like passports, and sunlight, getting in the way)

So...vamps in the shadowlands? thoughts?

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