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Xemiel

Werewolves And Malhim

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This only vaguely involves the Project, but it does indirectly and I've been giving it alot of thought. The Werewolves don't necessarily need to be the descendants of the Malhim Fae [see other theory, pretty much spelled out for us in the Fae book], but could be the Changelings of even Sixth House Fae. Remember, part of the theory of them being descended from Angels came from that the Malhim sang devotion to Zianna, who we know to be Gaia. Zianna was also Seraph of the Sixth House, remember. It's more than possible that SOME of her Children came from the Malhim, but it's also just as possible that some came from the Sixth House. This could also explain for the differences in Breed. Over a very very long number of generations, these Changelings had their bloodlines become very strong, both in terms of human belief - hi there Impergium - and in its inherit potence. So perhaps that sheltered them from the Sundering which struck the rest of the Fae world, as they had already been Prodigals long since by then.

Thoughts?

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Donor

Um, the Fae => Demon connection isn't strong enough to warrent that specific connection. Changelings are far different from the shifters really, including immortality which is something the shifters DEFINATLY do not posess. I still prefer the earlier theory that the Malhim became shifters and some of the other angels of the host became the Fae.

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Donor
Actually, shifters posses a sort of immortality that can be accessed by taking their crinos form at the time of their natural death.

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Donor

True, but shifters also age, ignore cold iron, access the umbra (Fae use the shadowlands only i believe) an a whole host of other things. It just doesn't work overall unfortunatly.

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It does work if you take into consideration just how much time has passed since their birthing. I don't think the concept is impossible given how much time could have passed between the original Firstborn Fae existing /as/ Fae and the Dark Ages. Think about how many generations removed the Garou and other Fera must be now.

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Donor

I think you are reaching overly far in this, especially considering the backstory for DA: Fae. They just dont mesh well together.

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Well, given half of my reasoning came from what you presented as fact, when it was fanfiction, I'm now not surprised that it doesn't mesh. Forget I said anything.

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Donor

I appologise that what i had given you was not verbatim from the book. I gathered it from the WW boards since i hadn't gotten my hands on a copy of it. The origin presented in the book is one of the possibilities in DA: Fae permitting crossover. The quote is in truth, fairly accurate and does represent the situation well.

I was simply stating that the Fae => Garou connection is less then firm. In part because there are no hard feelings or deep friendships between the two races, it doesn't mesh quite as well. Its interesting and has brought up a few interesting connections but IMO i don't believe it would work very well.

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My take on the Demon/Werewolf/Fae problem:

We may consider the Firstborn as an echo, a wake, of creational powers set in work by the Angels – something like their subconscious, which was initially set in being in a world (Umbra?) parallel to ours.

This works good with the idea of faerie realms as places of magic unbound (seen the relations between angelic and mage powers): as places of creation.

On a physical way, we might say that Faerie, Ljusalfheim, or whatever you want to call that, was the missing chain ring which closed the circle of entropy, wich we know to have been broken by the Fall – a place of eternity, power, bliss, where Creation was continually re-lived.

(This would have all the Firstborn to be humanoid in shape – I thought about this referring more to Tolkien’s “Silmarillion”, rather than real-world cosmologies. Anyway, the system Eru (God) – Valar (Elhoim) – Eldar (Firstborn) seems to me as working fine, even though still not exactly perfect).

Thus, we have this primeval system (good to fit even with the Firstborn belief to have created the world, as stated in “Dark Ages: Fae” – it is a 1-2-2-1 scheme, where 1 is God, then replied in 1 as Man, and 2-2 are Angels and Firstborn).

A primeval system which is perfect and unbroken – I would add that, probably, in this initial fase, Firstborn should not be self-conscious.

Then, with the Fall, things change – Faerie is set apart from this world, and the Firstborn suddenly awake to the self. This brings them into being divided in the four Courts, strongly tied to the Creation as they are. Here we follow the pattern of seasonal myths, of myths of death and re-birth. The Firstborn are born evil and good, since their first awakening of consciousness came with the severing of angel’s ties with God, and thus, come to be in a world already divided – but the Firstborn, too, are part of the Creation, and, as such, not absolute – thus, we get variations of the theme, and four Courts, rather than two, as could be thought.

Remember that Firstborn tend more toward the Creation than the creators, and, as such, their first awakening comes from angels, but has them look to earth, rather than heaven – they are and have always been part of Earth, of the Creation, while their creators are part of an higher system.

Then, I would like to add some influence from man, in the generation of Courts – the maker of Creation, after “God’s departure”, is and remains man – over the turning of years, or maybe, for Lucifer’s act of turning down to man, these echoes of primeval forces may have turned to man, and to his systems.

And this is about the Firstborn.

Then, we jump to the Shapeshifters.

I don’t think there should be any conncetion between Shifters and Malhim. I’ve always liked to think about a world fallen silent, and calm, after the end of the War – something like what happens after a great storm. And the Malhim, like the loyalist angels, disappear from the world, in this age, never to be seen again, except, maybe, in the Time of Judgement.

After the end of War, angels are just gone – everything that was before was gone, and the world is now given to the awakened man, for him to do as he pleases. I think this is very important: all angels, any and all angels, are gone, when the War ends.

So, in this silence and stillness, Zianna’s consciousness slowly fades, merging with the Earth.

There are places of power, for Zianna/Gaia, glades which are like her hearts, veins that pump her energy: places where the Gauntlet is thinner, and where primeval forces of Creation run wild – places that lead to Faerie/Umbra.

And there is a man which is again master of his fate, thus struggling to enslave the wilderness to his desires, endangering Gaia’s sacred places: Gaia, now laying defenseless, in the silence and star-dotted darkness, beneath which man once again stands erected, sole lord of Creation, ruler of ashes and wrecks, from which he may start to re-build Eden.

And, as man start to delve and burn, Zianna/Gaia starts to feel the pain – as if her limbs were severed, as if white-hot rivets were set in her brain. Thus, from pain and anger, the Wyrm is born – something which attracts all the evil Lucifer’s rebellion has left skulking the shades of Creation.

And I think this is the point where werewolves were brought to life. And I see Lucifer as their artificer.

Now, let’s get back to the real-world mythological known systems. Our main sources for werewolves and other shifters are clearly Celtic and Scandinavian myths, in a Western context.

We see how, in these myths, shifters were seen as agents of good, blessed by the gods, even though angered by a mad Rage (Scandinavia’s berserkers, and Irish Morrigan’s warrior-maidens, just to name two).

We see them mostly connected to two deities, both two, or one at time – the Earth Mother, and a god of knowledge (Oghma, in Celtic lore – but Odin, in Scandinavian – and I think this is an extremely interesting point – let’s think about Odin: Odin is the artificer of the Fall, in Viking sagas, Fall that may be in some way connected to Ymir’s assassination – he is the giver of knowledge, the god protector of the slain, and he is the one who teaches man the ways of magic, and the arts to speak with the dead, dominate the weather, change shape at will, and all the usual pagan magical lores – all traits we might easily connect to the figure of our Prince of All Angels).

Thus, I think werewolves may be one of the early attempts of Lucifer to protect the world – so, we give them a scarier, darker look, which I always complained as lacking in the legal-good “W:tA” game, and, at the same, time, we see them as defenders, the paladins and heroes we have always known them to be.

Lucifer may have taught early druids (in Ireland) and skalds (in Scandinavia) how to merge with Gaia, how to take her power – how to change shape (easily to remember that the Sixth House’s Zaltu apocalyptic form is exactly a Crinos werebeast) – thus, the Gnosis power may be the remnants of Zianna’s Faith, while Rage may be a projection of the “Torment” in her, caused by men’s ravages, which bred the Wyrm – thus linking the werewolves to both natures of Gaia, the Creator and the Destroyer, Wyld, Weaver and Wyrm – this, as I said, to have these furballs look even a bit more scarier, darker, cursed in the beginning, without taking off them their heroism.

Here we get back to the Fae theme: I would like here to connect it to “C:tD”, in some way.

I think Inanimae should not be just personifications of things – I think they should be all the things Creation has become after God’s departure.

Thus, we have an Inanimae that may be the spirit of a lake or glade, and another which may be a spirit of sorrow and anguish – things bred by man’s creative power, the legacy of God.

While in this world it is just dreams, in Umbra/Faerie or as you wish to call it, man’s dreams and deliria came to life, sustained by the echo of God’s power .

At this time, we know how the early tribes bred their totems: in a way similar to the ritual of totem binding, as described in “W:tA” core book. I think this is once again very important, since focusing on man creational powers: it is not the totem who chooses its tribe, but the tribe who chooses its totem – man is what he wants to be, not what he is told to be.

We have at this point to indentify Umbra’s spirits with Faerie’s Fae, but I don’t think that’s so surprising. We just have to consider the Firstborn as the traditional Fae, and the Inanimae as spirits of places, or feelings, or dreams, or archetypical beings, such as, let’s say, the cuckoo spirit, or the war spirit, or that spirit of sexuality describe in “Dark Ages: Mage”, called the Minotaur: since Fae, in old traditions, have always been embodiments of men’s dreams, nightmares, terrors and desires.

We have then this connection between Court of Winter and Banes, Fomori (which we know is the name of a Fae group in Irish legends easily conencted to vile beings, destroyers and ravagers) – and we may link the Banes to the Earthbound (let’s name just one: Kupala). Once we analyze the relative structure of myth, we see how it fits good with both pagan and organized religions lore. The evil has not an absolute form, but takes the form men wants to grant them. While some evil spirits may appear as demons, for a Christian believer, let’s say, for a Garou, pagan believer, it always looks like Svartalfàr, or Fir Bolg, or Fomorians. So, the Earthbound, the fallen angels, cover all the range of evil as it was dreamt by man, by the way, leaving too the Judeo-Christian perspective of “Demon” which you have been complaining. J

And the evil Fae are in fact connected to evil angels, as I have stated before, when starting to structure this mythological system of my own – which I think very fitting to both real-world myths (to which I always look, very long before even picking up the manuals :-D), and White Wolf mythology (without ever forgetting the total absence of angels from the world, which I believe to be an angular stone, for this scheme).

Then again, the Garou act as protectors of Gaia’s sacred places, links to the umbral realms – links to Faerie. So, we have some connections between Garou and Fae, but let’s state Garou ignore the divison between Firstborn and Inanimae, and tend to consider real Fae only the first ones, which are too extremely rarely seen in the modern world.

So this is it – I’m afraid I’ve written a little too much, and I truly hope you don’t get bored reading this.

Then tell me what do you think about this, of course.

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Just to clarify some points:

Zianna/Gaia may be divided into the Triat before the Wyrm was corrupted - it is just the balance, the continual shifting of stance, which gives the Earth life.

Werewolves: since they're typically european, guess they're connected with the Indo-european kin - originally, only one tribe, then divided in many streams, with very strong ethnic connections.

This, to remark too the similarity and yet difference of all human belief - bred from the same event (werewolves's creation), the tale takes as many turns and faces as the voices of those who told it.

Then: Gaia may have the power to breed her own Inanimae, probably provided with a Rage trait. This is the case of Jafflings, and things like those.

Last point: Zianna may be thus empowered by the werebeasts's Faith in her - it is as if a Pact is sealed between the Earth and the whole werebeast race.

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I always figured the Trait was the great machines of Creation that the fiends were so proud of. Other then that, I try to avoid making direct answers for demon/werewolf/fae connections... cannonotical connections anyway.

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Yes, I think this should be right.

I think the Triat should be a force interwoven with angels, depending on them, on their choices.

So, Lucifer's deeds get they Wyrm go mad.

I like this solution, Lucifer's rebellion giving self-consciousness to the Engines of Creation (just like a Joe Satriani's album, by the way), much more than what I wrote above, about the corruption of man.

This is far more intriguing, yeah.

Then, the Umbra might be something like the shards of the other worlds, those deleted byt God's descent into the world, after the demons'uprising.

A world opposito to ours, which is linear in time and space - the Umbra is a world fractured, on both senses, chronological and dimensional.

We might say this vision is getting even philosophically interesting. evilgrin.gif

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Before God touched Creation, there was harmony.

After God touched Creation, and thus shattered Reality, harmony split into 3 different entities; The Wyld, the Weaver and the Wyrm.

Theese three were what was left of The Clockwork, The Engine of Creation, whathave you. Before the Fall, it worked flawless with the work of the Elohim.

After the Fall, it split and became less than before. It became flawed.

Thus, the Curses proclaimed by Michael were made true.

Still, what was now the Triat had not been tainted yet.

BUT (funny how there's always a but, ay?) !!!

As Caine gave his most deared possesion to the Creator, everything went shit. Creation, the Triat, was tainted forever.

-That's how it works in my world, anyway

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I remember reading somewhere that it was the Weaver that went mad a while before the Wyrm, and that she drove him insane. Thus, while the inenvtion of murder and lying to oneself may have made the Wyrm insane, what if Lucifer and the infernal host made the Weaver go insane when they bestowed sentience upon humanity?

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Yeah, according to Garou legends, the Weaver went mad and trapped the Wyrm in Her webs, and *wush* the Wyrm went mad.

But the Garou legends aren't necessarily true, are they ?? I mean, this was ages before there even where such a thing as Garou!

What I think is the action that made the Weaver insane, is the murder of Abel. For all acount, this was NOT a part of the Divine Plan - which the initial Rebel was. It was an unforeseen consquence of man's sentience and free will.

Thus, the Divine Plan was broken - and the Weaver, the keeper of Order, went mad. Caboom!

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("wise fwom youw gwaves...")

 

I've been toying with a new Demon chronicle, and thinking about how the various other splats could be tied into Demon lore. Mages are easy. Changelings can be made to work. Vampires... just require deciding what creation myth is "true."

 

But Fera gave me pause. Not that I couldn't make them work, but it seemed to me that it would be like putting steak in a smoothie. Doable, but not a satisfying thing as a steak or a smoothie.

 

I happened to be looking at the Storyteller's guide, and saw in the contents that it does actually talk about werewolves, curious, I paged over and took a look at what it said about them, and found the mention of the Malhim. I was curious what more I could find about the Malhim, googled it, and lo and behold, I was given a page from a forum I haven't posted on for fifteen years.

 

The idea of the fera being the malhim is interesting, and finding the malhim tidbit helped me sort of solidify one of the ideas I had for how the fera could fit into Demon's lore.

 

So, let's, for a moment, take at face value that the fera are or arose from the malhim. We can handwave fera theology as their personal, orally handed down story of themselves, mutated over millennia.

 

What I'm thinking is that, as the war of ideas between the angels and the fallen became a war of blood, the Creator found they needed a new class of angels, more suited to battle. This much is explicitly stated in the Demon core and Storyteller Handbook. But it doesn't say how the malhim were created.

 

So, my thought is that the Creator took the Angelic houses, and created from them the fera, each House becoming a breed, or the progenitor of a breed. We can discount the Ananasi, as they were explicitly not created by the same entity as the other fera.

 

Angels of the Dawn, whose task was to oversee the other houses, became the teachers of the malhim, ie, Nuwisha and Kitsune.

Angels of Wind, whose task was to carry the breath of the Creator, became the messengers of malhim, ie, Corax.

Angels of Fundament, whose task was to create the physical universe, became the guardians of the earth and its secrets, ie, Gurahl and Mokole.

Angels of the Night, whose task was to order the universe, became protectors of that order, ie, Nagah.

Angels of the Seas, whose task was to fill the waters of the Earth, became the protectors of those seas, ie, Rokea.

Angels of the Wild, whose task was to create animal and plant life upon the land, became the warriors of those wild places, ie, Garou.

Angels of the Second World, whose task was to greet the dead, became keepers of the dead and secrets, and watchers of the humans, specifically to keep their numbers in check, ie, the Bastet and the Ratkin.

 

This does leave a question of who the Apis, Camazotz and Grondr were. The Camazotz are easy, as they are the nocturnal counter to the Corax as Kitsune's purpose is essentially to be the Eastern counter to the Nuwisha. So the Camazotz would have been made from Angels of the Wind. Grondr, being purifiers, could be tied to the angels of life, ie, again, the Angels of the Wind. But they could just as easily have been created from the Angels of the Wild, given the task of "repairing" the taint of the fallen upon the land as their Garou brothers fought the perpetrators. Apis are an interesting question. As they were "Gaia's matchmakers," I would tie them to angels who were concerned with emotion, ie, the Angels of the Seas.

 

So, after taking the known, canon extinct fera into account, this makes it so that only Angels of the Night have a single corresponding fera. Which bugs the part of me that wants things to be even. They could be tied to the Ananasi, though, given that, broadly, the Ananasi are meant to replace the imbalanced Triat, ie, rebuild a destroyed order. And this has a nice symmetry in the Fiends, whose symbol is a spider, and the spider-shifters, coming from the same house of Angels.

 

As to whether the Fera and the Malhim are one and the same, or the Fera came from the Malhim, is up to the individual storyteller, but this is at least an interesting way to do it.

 

Edit: Oh, I guess we're talking Fae in this thread, too. The way I'm tying the Fae into Demon, for my game, is leaning more into the idea that each Changeling kith represents a particular type of dream, and an old, real world folkloric belief that fae are rebel angels whose crimes were not so great as to be thrown into Hell, merely ejected from Heaven.

 

So, I don't know how far anyone's gone into Demon lore. Reading about the houses so I can give my players a more concise run down, I found in Houses of the Fallen that the Slayers were cut off from the Second World, and thus created the Land of the Dead so they had somewhere to put those human souls that they collected at the time of death during the war. Charon then created another realm, deeper inside of that realm, called the Sea of Dreams, which was the last bastion of the Fallen and their dead human allies when the rest of the Fallen were defeated. As Usiel and other Fallen fought the last battle, Charon and other Slayers ferried the dead into this realm, and Usiel and Charon held off the onslaught of the angels for as long as possible, until, eventually, they had to close the gate, lest the angels invade the Sea of Dreams. When the fallen were defeated, they were taken prisoner, while the mortal souls were ignored.

 

So then, we have this huge number of mortal souls, in a Sea of Dreams, who found themselves alone all of a sudden after the war. In my view, these mortal souls became, in time, the Sidhe, and coalesced around various sorts of dreams.

Edited by Korbl

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