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Most Broken Discipline

What do you think is the most broken discipline? (TT Rules)  

62 members have voted

  1. 1. What do you think is the most broken discipline? (TT Rules)

    • Animalism
      5
    • Auspex
      2
    • Celerity
      8
    • Dominate
      8
    • Majesty
      10
    • Obfuscate
      3
    • Nightmare
      14
    • Protean
      5
    • Resilience
      5
    • Vigor
      2


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Wow, Majesty is still numero uno bad discipline...

Nightmare in close second... and yet the one that folks most often bitch about Protean is sitting at a fairly average stance...

could it be that social disciplines are seen as a bad thing? *LOL*

Logan

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That is strange, given I don't think anyone said anything about Nightmare so far...

People always bitch about the same thing with Protean though, and its a relatively easy fix if they want to switch levels 3-4 around. The power's limited scope means it can never be as game breaking as Majesty, Nightmare or Dominate can be, and certainly not as much of a headache for ST's...

So yeah, Social disciplines can be a lot worse than pretty much anyother...

Edited by pascale

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Donor

Any unique bloodline discipline is broken. It doesn't even matter what the rules for it are.

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So yeah, Social disciplines can be a lot worse than pretty much anyother...

That all depends... if you're a bruiser social disciplines are your worst enemy {most likely} but if you're a social character then you have a fairly good defence against social attacks... so they're not so much of a threat...

Logan

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Donor

As I said before (or should have somewhere) none of the disciplines in the Corebook are broken, in fact they are quite balanced. About the only discipline I have a problem with is the luck stealing one but even that one can be fixed if you add in a powerstat defense. Just for fun imagine the chaos that would ensue if the Bogawhatever tried his trick in a game of Texas Hold'em which the victim is a Mage with Fate 4 "Rote Action" spell up and running...

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Curator

As I said before (or should have somewhere) none of the disciplines in the Corebook are broken, in fact they are quite balanced. About the only discipline I have a problem with is the luck stealing one but even that one can be fixed if you add in a powerstat defense. Just for fun imagine the chaos that would ensue if the Bogawhatever tried his trick in a game of Texas Hold'em which the victim is a Mage with Fate 4 "Rote Action" spell up and running...

I don't know. There has been a LOT of complaint (as well as whining) about Sunnikuse and the common conclusion of the debates is that it should be resisted. I stuck to this modification when I recently allowed one into my Chronicle as a player and though I would have thought it to be a perfect fix, it wasn't. In this case, the player didn't min/max her Dice Pools and didn't end up rolling a bucket with Sunnikuse, so resistance and printed modifiers ended up hosing her more than I found entertaining. I have since gone to rules-as-printed without any headache or sense of over-empowerment. It is definately a break-able Discipline in the hands of someone who is going to munchkin out their Dice Pools and abuse it, but in the hands of someone more intent on her character than their powers, it has been fun.

As far as the core Disciplines, though (and I may have already said this previously), I agree that nothing is inherently broken. Another Topic discussing Bloodline Disciplines may be in order, there's where your misuse and breakage is more likely to occur.

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Donor

Well that's a good thing that it seems to be workable in your game. Just don't blame me if I am a bit gun shy about trying your solution given I would be very worried when the time comes that those dicepools are maxed out. (Then again I'm well known to have a huge anti-vampire bias).

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Curator

Well that's a good thing that it seems to be workable in your game. Just don't blame me if I am a bit gun shy about trying your solution. (Then again I'm well known to have a huge anti-vampire bias).

I got lucky as the player in question is also the mother of my child, so we have lots of time to discuss viewpoints on things and she is very good at getting into the character without regard to where its dots fall on a piece of paper. I would say that Sunnikuse is one of those abilities that could require wrangling with the wrong player behind the reins and the safe course is probably the best.

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Donor

I got lucky as the player in question is also the mother of my child, so we have lots of time to discuss viewpoints on things and she is very good at getting into the character without regard to where its dots fall on a piece of paper. I would say that Sunnikuse is one of those abilities that could require wrangling with the wrong player behind the reins and the safe course is probably the best.

I definitely see that and for now I think I will choose the safe course by allowing a powerstat resistance, given the fact that I'm single and not romantically involved with any of my players. :)

(I love them as antagonists so I want a fair defense option for my players).

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That all depends... if you're a bruiser social disciplines are your worst enemy {most likely} but if you're a social character then you have a fairly good defence against social attacks... so they're not so much of a threat...

Logan

Except in a Role playing game, the availability to be in any social situation, and to use a social discipline, is just around the corner.

Fights are not so easily had, and they are kind of slow on a table top.

I've seen way more players overabuse Dominate, Majesty and Nightmare in so many ways, precisely because this is a role playing game above all, and that it is considered more "normal" and less "twinkish" to stack up on those disicplines instead of the physical ones. Hell using them is sometimes considered to be roleplaying...

Use any of those disicplines on a mortal, and you crush them. Use them on a vampire, and you still stand a good chance of affecting them. You can use them anywhere, any time...

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Except in a Role playing game, the availability to be in any social situation, and to use a social discipline, is just around the corner.

Fights are not so easily had, and they are kind of slow on a table top.

I've seen way more players overabuse Dominate, Majesty and Nightmare in so many ways, precisely because this is a role playing game above all, and that it is considered more "normal" and less "twinkish" to stack up on those disicplines instead of the physical ones. Hell using them is sometimes considered to be roleplaying...

Use any of those disicplines on a mortal, and you crush them. Use them on a vampire, and you still stand a good chance of affecting them. You can use them anywhere, any time...

If you use any discipline on a mortal you crush them... that's the whole point of playing a vampire game as opposed to a mortals game...

I don't really think it's abuse to use the tools of the game that you're given...

Logan

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Curator
If you use any discipline on a mortal you crush them... that's the whole point of playing a vampire game as opposed to a mortals game...
The interesting thing is, ritual magic such as Cruac is resisted passively, using the target's resistance Attribute (Resolve, Stamina, Composure) alone as a penalty to the ritualist's dice pool, e.g. Manipulation + Occult + Cruac - target's Resolve.

So, against Cruac, for instance, a vampire's Blood Potency, a mage's Gnosis, a Promethean's Azoth, counts for nothing: and a mortal with, say, Resolve 4 has a better chance of resisting a Cruac ritual than a BP 5 vampire with Resolve 2 ...

Sometimes, it pays to stay mortal.

Sometimes ...

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If you use any discipline on a mortal you crush them... that's the whole point of playing a vampire game as opposed to a mortals game...

Your missing the point. These social disciplines are applicable 99% of the time in this roleplaying game. They crush mortals easily (which means no hard time hunting) and more often than not also crush other vampires.

That, imo, would make them far easier to abuse and to be considered broken than any of the physical disciplines.

I don't really think it's abuse to use the tools of the game that you're given...

Logan

Then why are people always complaining that it is twinkish to use protean in a fight? And why is it deemed alright in most discussions that Dominate, Majesty or Nightmare take the place of actual roleplaying?

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Curator

The interesting thing is, ritual magic such as Cruac is resisted passively, using the target's resistance Attribute (Resolve, Stamina, Composure) alone as a penalty to the ritualist's dice pool, e.g. Manipulation + Occult + Cruac - target's Resolve.

So, against Cruac, for instance, a vampire's Blood Potency, a mage's Gnosis, a Promethean's Azoth, counts for nothing: and a mortal with, say, Resolve 4 has a better chance of resisting a Cruac ritual than a BP 5 vampire with Resolve 2 ...

Sometimes, it pays to stay mortal.

Sometimes ...

I thought I remembered reading in the CotC book or maybe a recent developer comment that Cruac shouldn't be resisted, despite what has been previously printed, but I can't find the sidebar right now.

Does that ring any bells with anyone or have I crossed wires in my head again?

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Curator
I thought I remembered reading in the CotC book or maybe a recent developer comment that Crúac shouldn't be resisted, despite what has been previously printed, but I can't find the sidebar right now.
No, it's more or less reiterated in the Circle of the Crone book, right at the start: Crúac rituals can only be resisted passively, using Resolve, Stamina or Composure, if they can be resisted at all.

Some of the rituals described in the first printing, my flawed yet faithful copy of which I still have, had Crúac rolls contested against, e.g., Resolve + Blood Potency: nowadays, those same rituals, e.g. Blood Price, aren't contested: the dice pool is instead penalised by the subject's resistance Attribute - in the case of Blood Price it's Composure (why Composure, I have no idea, since Blood Price affects the victim's body, and should therefore be penalised by the target Kindred's Stamina, IMO. Maybe your local Circle has a "Crúac variant" which has the dice pool of Manipulation + occult + Crúac - subject's Stamina, instead).

But the sidebar in the Circle book makes it quite clear: once the blood witch starts her ritual, there are only two ways of making sure your character doesn't fall under Crúac's cruel spell: stop her from finishing the ritual (hard to do if it's Crúac •, and only needs 1 turn to complete), or get the hell out.

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I voted Domanite for the pure reason is that you don't have to pay a point of Vitea or willpower intill the four dot. And even then it just Willpower.

Expect for that all the major 11 are alright and can beat each other. Now some of the bloodline displines, are just wrong.

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I abstained from voting also. The core disciplines are great in specific circumstances, and useless in others. Although it seems as though the core discipline that gets the most complaint is Protean. I guess because of Claws of the Wild, I dunno. Considering that it's the signature in-clan Discipline of the Gangrel, who get hosed pretty bad intellectually (yes, that's debatable-Annaku, anyone?), it seems pretty fair to me that they're balanced more towards survival- surviving physical attacks, surviving outside of domains, and so on.

And watching players use Dominate on other players is just fun. I'm reminded of the time that one player (Ventrue) was trying to convince another player (very low Resolve Nos) and decided to use Dominate.

Nos: "I'm not sure it's such a good idea to blow up the building."

Ventrue: (Using Dominate) "Sure it is."

Nos: "Hmm.... when you put it that way...."

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Experience has confirmed 1 thing to me: in a roleplaying game, which puts primacy on social interaction (to the exclusion/diminished physical interaction) the disciplines that are most open to and most often are abused are the social disciplines. Take your pick of Dominate, Majesty, Nightmare (and sometimes obfuscate). Those are the disciplines whose uses if counted are over the top. It's funny, cause the blood mentions the addictions on these powers, how some come to rely on them like crutches... But honestly, its the players who get enticed...

By comparison, while the appearance of feral claws always freaks everyone out (because of its potential as a source of irreversable death/damage), they usually end up doing very little other than killing straw men-thugs and the like, and rarely make more than 2 appearances per story...

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Curator
Experience has confirmed 1 thing to me: in a roleplaying game, which puts primacy on social interaction (to the exclusion/diminished physical interaction) the disciplines that are most open to and most often are abused are the social disciplines. Take your pick of Dominate, Majesty, Nightmare (and sometimes obfuscate). Those are the disciplines whose uses if counted are over the top. It's funny, cause the blood mentions the addictions on these powers, how some come to rely on them like crutches... But honestly, its the players who get enticed...

Well, The Blood gives the ST hints as to how to control its overuse in a chronicle. Your characters might find themselves getting involved with the lives of their Herd, Contacts, Allies etc., not to mention the non - dot NPCs who comprise the support behind whatever Status they may have in mortal society. Those people might really like them; but one day, the Kindred might just turn on one of them, feed off them, and suddenly things aren't the same with that person any more.

He becomes quiet, withdrawn, acting like a rape victim - which, truth, he is, sort of - and the ST has a perfect opportunity to reveal the player's monstrousness. "Why did Simon just callously drain his secretary like that, Mike? He just won you that contract." "Oh, Simon needed the blood in a hurry so he can activate Sovereignty in the boardroom." "Well, couldn't you have just used Awe? They're already more than halfway there." "Look, I'm a Daeva, and Guttony's my Vice." "You mean Simon's the Daeva, Mike." *pause* "Oh."

Simon had an excuse, sort of. He was drawn that way. But when Mike treated Simon's secretary like a free powerup to activate one of his kewl p0werz, what was Mike's excuse?

If The Blood does teach one anything, it's not to take Disciplines for granted any more. Particularly not by the players.

Maybe this is something the Mentors can explain to their characters at some point. Maybe the Mekhet's Sire uses Telepathy on one child abuse victim too many and breaks down sobbing tears of blood that won't stop. Maybe the Nosferatu using the Familiar Stranger is feeding off a woman in her living room and a child wanders in and asks Daddy what he's doing to Mummy.

Or maybe the Celerity - addicted player character goes a little too far and, in a frenzy, decimates his own Herd in Wassail.

It's something for the players to think about. Right?

By comparison, while the appearance of feral claws always freaks everyone out (because of its potential as a source of irreversable death/damage), they usually end up doing very little other than killing straw men-thugs and the like, and rarely make more than 2 appearances per story...

Some "superheroey" powers do tend to do that, appear no more than once or twice in a story. They seem to be that important, they become a sort of Chekhov's Gun: "If you put a gun onstage in Act I, you must use it by Act III." If your Gangrel sports the claws in Act I, he must either threaten (Presence + Intimidation) or cause aggravated damage by Act III with them.

Me, I like what they did with that in The Blood; that once a character's seen sporting the claws, other Kindred start avoiding them as though they were somehow tainted, frightening, dangerous, like a guy who has a habit of carrying live grenades in his pockets on social visits to his mother; and somehow, the claw wielder always seems to end up getting the really shitty jobs going around, being the Prince's hired killer all the time.

Of course if a Gangrel knows how to shift into mist or change into a wolf or bat, it kind of stands to reason that they will know Claws of the Wild, so any Kindred who demonstrates either of those two advanced powers is going to be given the same wide berth by all the other Kindred.

A non-Gangrel sporting Claws of the Wild ought to be treated the same as the sort of revelation that comes at the end of a cliffhanger episode: "I don't work for Belial's Brood. I am Belial's Brood!" sort of thing.

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Some people stated that Vigor isn't worth its price. Come on, remember that aside from adding to your Strenght it adds to the Number of Yards you multiply per success? There is a Werewolf Gift that Adds 6 Dice to your jumping pools. After some play time, I 100% sure that I preffer Vigor 1 than that Gift. You can jump very far with Vigor, very far...

Edited by BinAly

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Well, The Blood gives the ST hints as to how to control its overuse in a chronicle. Your characters might find themselves getting involved with the lives of their Herd, Contacts, Allies etc., not to mention the non - dot NPCs who comprise the support behind whatever Status they may have in mortal society. Those people might really like them; but one day, the Kindred might just turn on one of them, feed off them, and suddenly things aren't the same with that person any more.

He becomes quiet, withdrawn, acting like a rape victim - which, truth, he is, sort of - and the ST has a perfect opportunity to reveal the player's monstrousness. "Why did Simon just callously drain his secretary like that, Mike? He just won you that contract." "Oh, Simon needed the blood in a hurry so he can activate Sovereignty in the boardroom." "Well, couldn't you have just used Awe? They're already more than halfway there." "Look, I'm a Daeva, and Guttony's my Vice." "You mean Simon's the Daeva, Mike." *pause* "Oh."

Simon had an excuse, sort of. He was drawn that way. But when Mike treated Simon's secretary like a free powerup to activate one of his kewl p0werz, what was Mike's excuse?

If The Blood does teach one anything, it's not to take Disciplines for granted any more. Particularly not by the players.

Maybe this is something the Mentors can explain to their characters at some point. Maybe the Mekhet's Sire uses Telepathy on one child abuse victim too many and breaks down sobbing tears of blood that won't stop. Maybe the Nosferatu using the Familiar Stranger is feeding off a woman in her living room and a child wanders in and asks Daddy what he's doing to Mummy.

Or maybe the Celerity - addicted player character goes a little too far and, in a frenzy, decimates his own Herd in Wassail.

It's something for the players to think about. Right?

Yes, but this all still relies on the Player's roleplaying... It isn't something you can enforce... If a Player doesn't feel he is overusing it, or simply doesn't realize it, it is very hard to make any of the psychological side effects in any way a detriment to abuse...

See, i don't even think their characters need the crutches. It's the players, not their characters, who are enticed by the social abilities (especially those that cost no vitae).

Some "superheroey" powers do tend to do that, appear no more than once or twice in a story. They seem to be that important, they become a sort of Chekhov's Gun: "If you put a gun onstage in Act I, you must use it by Act III." If your Gangrel sports the claws in Act I, he must either threaten (Presence + Intimidation) or cause aggravated damage by Act III with them.

Me, I like what they did with that in The Blood; that once a character's seen sporting the claws, other Kindred start avoiding them as though they were somehow tainted, frightening, dangerous, like a guy who has a habit of carrying live grenades in his pockets on social visits to his mother; and somehow, the claw wielder always seems to end up getting the really shitty jobs going around, being the Prince's hired killer all the time.

Of course if a Gangrel knows how to shift into mist or change into a wolf or bat, it kind of stands to reason that they will know Claws of the Wild, so any Kindred who demonstrates either of those two advanced powers is going to be given the same wide berth by all the other Kindred.

A non-Gangrel sporting Claws of the Wild ought to be treated the same as the sort of revelation that comes at the end of a cliffhanger episode: "I don't work for Belial's Brood. I am Belial's Brood!" sort of thing.

But that's part of my point right: the claws of the wild are so know for their deadliness that few would dare challenge one of them to direct combat. But then add to that the fact that as a rule, in most vampire games, combat and violence are rare, and I find it funny that so many complain it is broken and overused compared to the social disciplines, which are so incredibly cheap, versatile, and have so many opportunities for abuse in the predominantly social setting of the game...

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Guest SKeLoRiC

Broken?

Nah...

I really don't see any as broken.

I see some as less useful but it doesn't lead into the any of the more useful ones being broken.

I rather wish there had been a "NONE/NONE OF THE ABOVE" as a selection.

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