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Most Broken Discipline

What do you think is the most broken discipline? (TT Rules)  

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  1. 1. What do you think is the most broken discipline? (TT Rules)

    • Animalism
      5
    • Auspex
      2
    • Celerity
      8
    • Dominate
      8
    • Majesty
      10
    • Obfuscate
      3
    • Nightmare
      14
    • Protean
      5
    • Resilience
      5
    • Vigor
      2


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Curator
Someone over on the WW forums posted their fix for Obten 2.0 and I thought it lovely. Asked him to post it here as an article, and *checks* he didn't. I think his name was human_being there, will have to go check my PMs when I get home.
Keep checking. I'm considering posting a fixed Obtenebration Discipline power spread for the Articles section.

If none are forthcoming soon, I'm tempted to work on my own version ...

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In answer to one of the previous suggestions that Theban Sorcery is a bit too powerful, I would disagree based on the fact that the great power it represents is balanced by costs and complications. While most Disciplines aren't that costly to activate, every Theban Sorcery Ritual costs one Willpower dot to activate, regardless of the cost. Add to that the fact that all the powers have to be bought separately. Theban Sorcery isn't really unfair in how powerful it is, since it's available to all vampires in the Lancea Sanctum. If you want to say that it's twinked, you'll want to compare it to the other Covenant benefits (Cruac, Coils of the Dragon, and whatever gift baskets characters get for joining the two secular ones). Otherwise it's trying to compare to fundamentally different things, which just doesn't get you anywhere.

The reason the ten mainstream Disciplines don't have their own "Rituals" (or alternate powers) for each dot level is because they each represent a certain level of understanding a vampire has about how to use his clan's innate power. To achieve the second dot of Dominate means that your character has learned how to manipulate a person's waking thoughts and actions, and the knowledge/ability that comes with the third dot builds on that (forcing a person to change their own memories). There just aren't any alternate ways of growing in those Disciplines. Now the exception to the rule that isn't present in Theban Sorcery is that when the character has mastered a one of the ten mainstream Disciplines (that is, has gotten the fifth dot), they are able to determine how their powers grow from there. Characters can't invent their own Theban Sorcery Rituals after they've gotten five dots in it; they can only go on to learn the level six Rituals, and so on. Also, Devotions can be bought for prices comparable to that of Theban Sorcery Rituals, and those allow you to put your Disciplines and other abilities to work in very creative ways.

In answer to the question about possible Disciplines that give temporary Resolve or Composure, that's beyond logical vampire capabilities. Celerity, Resilience, and Vigor are reasonable because vampire can logically fortify their bodies to superhuman levels through the power of their blood. Intellectual and Social Attributes aren't part of the same realm, and are, instead, purely subject to who your vampire is as a person, not as an animated body. Spending blood to make oneself braver or more intelligent, for exmaple, just doesn't make sense. That's what Willpower is for (giving bonuses on such rolls), but Willpower can't be spent to increase itself for obvious reasons.

Now there are some Bloodline Disciplines that allow the vampire to regenerate spent Willpower (but not in excess of their maximum supply, which is also a static part of the character's personality), and of course there's the natural way of doing it through Virtue and Vice indulgence.

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I disagree, Knightmare. I think a character CAN "invent" new Theban Sorcery rituals. They have to have come from somewhere, after all. Of course, he'd call it "discovering", or claim to have the knowledge planted for him to find it by Longinus or God, but still. At the same time, the very book states that alternate abilities could be reasonably allowed at each dot of the mainstream Disciplines. Maybe some vampire out there uses Nightmare just a little differently, scaring mortals into a coma instead of driving them to run away.

They've definitely put the ball in each troupe's court as to what they want to do with the disciplines as they stand, and each ST or player has a way of making characters that don't quite stick to the norm.

At the same time, if the blood can only enact physical change, explain to me the way that Obfuscate, Nightmare, Majesty, Dominate, and Animalism function, please. :)

The blood is a powerful force.

Oh, and now on topic: None of the listed disciplines is really all that powerful. Not a single one is really broken, as far as I'm concerned. They did well.

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I'm afraid I just don't buy the idea that Theban Sorcery Rituals are created by the vampires themselves. If that were true, then why are offerings necessary to make them work?

Oh, and now on topic: None of the listed disciplines is really all that powerful. Not a single one is really broken, as far as I'm concerned. They did well.
That's true, though.

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I'm afraid I just don't buy the idea that Theban Sorcery Rituals are created by the vampires themselves. If that were true, then why are offerings necessary to make them work?

They're not truly "created" so much as "discovered" as the Lancea Sanctum claims...

Of course, supporting that theory requires that one outright support their dogma, too, in that there IS a God in the WoD, and he DOES support the Lancea Sanctum through the gifting of these rituals to them...

Or maybe it's just some other horrible entity giving them these tidbits of arcane knowledge, hmmm?

Still, I think of the offerings as more along the lines of sacrifices, like in most other rituals. Everything has a cost. Calling it an offering doesn't change the fact that it's still just sorcery, as far as I'm concerned. :)

And, as other people have said, Theban Sorcery and Cruac aren't broken either, since they're both so hard to learn, and the rituals are mostly extended actions requiring some sort of sacrifice from the user. Coils of the Dragon are harder, but, still not broken. After all, some of the Coil of Banes powers require you to put yourself in very dangerous situations (for a Vampire) to learn them. And I have to say that I like the idea of "conditioning the Beast" that such powers cleave to.

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Donor

I'm afraid I just don't buy the idea that Theban Sorcery Rituals are created by the vampires themselves. If that were true, then why are offerings necessary to make them work?

That's true, though.

Cruac and Theban Sorcery rituals are not created, as much as developed. Many rituals from both are well known amongst their respective covenants; that doesn't mean any Kindred can't find a long-lost ritual, or find the methods to create a new one. This shouldn't be easy at all, tho, and would require extensive roleplaying besides the experience points used.

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But sacrifices to who? Or to what? There isn't anything special about the objects that the vampire actually draws the power from, if that's what you mean. Most are mundane, and none are supernaturally charmed, so the sorceror is drawing something extraordinary out of an ordinary object. I really don't think that it's the vampire's pure force of will that makes the magic manifest, either.

And no, serial_experiments, they aren't really developed either. There isn't a single one that vampires made on their own; Every single one was discovered, and since its discovery, hasn't been altered at all. In fact, if one of them was altered in the slightest way it just wouldn't work.

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Donor

And no, serial_experiments, they aren't really developed either. There isn't a single one that vampires made on their own; Every single one was discovered, and since its discovery, hasn't been altered at all. In fact, if one of them was altered in the slightest way it just wouldn't work.

By "developed" I don't mean created, mind you. I mean that the ritual was "discovered", mostly by experimental fashion or (Hey! That's a good idea!) mystical revelation. Still, the vampire has to experiment with it and figure out how to make it work. It's not a matter of altering an existing ritual so it will work differently: It's a matter of trying to find the correct way to make the ritual.

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Well, yeah, but that doesn't negate each ritual's supernatural, extravampiricular, possibly-divine, origins.

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Donor

Well, yeah, but that doesn't negate each ritual's supernatural, extravampiricular, possibly-divine, origins.

Oh, absolutely.

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Donor

So we're agreed? That's strange... what were we arguing about, then?

Clarification of similar stances expressed with different words.

Mostly, to ensure that the point can be expressed properly.

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Donor

er.. nevermind

wait..

we can't delete our own posts no more?

Edited by Krieg

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I don't think that protean is actually "broken", but i'm been playing around with thought about changing Claws of the wild as lvl 4 discipline and shape of the beast as lvl3...

I know that it sounds more logical to be able to first transform your hands to claws before learning to transform fully to animal shape. But think about this:

You would get more likely PC gangrels to make up more cunning ways to solve situations, instead of hackin' and slashing their way to fortune with agg. damage claws..

I think agg. damage is scary, and I think gangrels should be scary, but too often I have run across to PC who use this lovely f*cking scary discipline to any mundane fight.. It kind of takes the edge out of it, don't ya think?

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I think all vampires are scary. I think Gangrels are scary, but not because they can deal aggravated damage. Rather, it is because they are unpredictable, and closer to the beast. More primal. You don't know how far you can trust an animal.

In a way, it is fitting that they deal with even mundane situations with claws: they aren't about to sugar coat the demonstration of who is a superior predator...

But I find it strange how many STs complain about gangrels dealing with physical situations with Claws, and yet say nothing of the near constant use of Dominate, Majesty, and Obfuscate in social situations...

I for one, would like to see a Ventrue being scary because he owns you, not because he can twist your mind into obeying...

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Donor
But I find it strange how many STs complain about gangrels dealing with physical situations with Claws, and yet say nothing of the near constant use of Dominate, Majesty, and Obfuscate in social situations...

I for one, would like to see a Ventrue being scary because he owns you, not because he can twist your mind into obeying...

I would have to agree with this given the ability to grow claws that deal aggravated damage is so limited compared to a discipline such as Majesty or Auspex...

Oh yeah Ventrue are scary motherfuckers, remember when dealing with them the walls have ears and everybody has a price.

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Vigor in my view is a little weak this time around.

Lemme see if I have this straight :confused: . Any vamp can increase any physical attribute by 2 points for each point of vitae he expends. So we'll say he spends 2 points of vitae raising his strength only 4 points. Thats exactly the same as having as aquired a Vigor rating of 4 points, right?

The only difference I see in the above example is the vamp in question must spend 2 points of vitae for 4 extra points of strength versus 1 point of vitae. Granted your blood potency must be high enough to spend at least 2 points a turn but even if its only one point you still have the eqivalent of Vigor 2 naturally.

Vigor just seems kinda busted to me until your vamp achieves a little age and even then it doesn't really pay off a whole lot until you akrew more than a cuple of points in the discipline. :brooding:

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Vigor in my view is a little weak this time around.

Lemme see if I have this straight :confused: . Any vamp can increase any physical attribute by 2 points for each point of vitae he expends. So we'll say he spends 2 points of vitae raising his strength only 4 points. Thats exactly the same as having as aquired a Vigor rating of 4 points, right?

The only difference I see in the above example is the vamp in question must spend 2 points of vitae for 4 extra points of strength versus 1 point of vitae. Granted your blood potency must be high enough to spend at least 2 points a turn but even if its only one point you still have the eqivalent of Vigor 2 naturally.

Vigor just seems kinda busted to me until your vamp achieves a little age and even then it doesn't really pay off a whole lot until you akrew more than a cuple of points in the discipline. :brooding:

so you're saying that Vigor is broken because it's balanced with the other physical disciplines?

Logan

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so you're saying that Vigor is broken because it's balanced with the other physical disciplines?

Logan

No but I do suppose that Resiliance is broken in a similar way. I'm saying its broken because any and every vamp starts off with the equivalent of Vigor 2 since they can spend a blood point and raise their strength (or stamina in the case of Resiliance) by 2 points.

I'm not sure how to go about fixing Vigor as a discipline though. Maybe count points in Vigor as automatic successes on damage? It definately make bashing damage alot more frightening. I can't remember but did Potence form OWoD work that way? :confused:

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Curator

Vigor in my view is a little weak this time around.

Lemme see if I have this straight :confused: . Any vamp can increase any physical attribute by 2 points for each point of vitae he expends. So we'll say he spends 2 points of vitae raising his strength only 4 points. Thats exactly the same as having as aquired a Vigor rating of 4 points, right?

This is incorrect but I have found that it is a common misconception. Physical Augmention lets a Vampire increase Physical Dice Pools by 2 for each Vitae spent and lasts for a single Turn. Disciplines actually do increase the Physical Attribute, providing increases to any derived Traits such as Health or Speed in addition to any Dice Pools and lasts for the whole Scene.

So in your example the Vampire could spend 2 Vitae as a Reflexive Action to provide a +4 modifier to any Strength-based Physical Dice Pools he rolls for a Turn or he could activate Vigor 4 as an Instant Action and have +4 Strength for the Scene. He could do both if he had the Vitae and REALLY wanted to turn something into paste with his hands.

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This is incorrect but I have found that it is a common misconception. Physical Augmention lets a Vampire increase Physical Dice Pools by 2 for each Vitae spent and lasts for a single Turn. Disciplines actually do increase the Physical Attribute, providing increases to any derived Traits such as Health or Speed in addition to any Dice Pools and lasts for the whole Scene.

So in your example the Vampire could spend 2 Vitae as a Reflexive Action to provide a +4 modifier to any Strength-based Physical Dice Pools he rolls for a Turn or he could activate Vigor 4 as an Instant Action and have +4 Strength for the Scene. He could do both if he had the Vitae and REALLY wanted to turn something into paste with his hands.

Oooooooh. That makes alot more sense and seems alot more dangerous than I had thought. I had never even considered combining the two. Thanks a bunch Krowe for clearing that up for me ^_^ . I wonder why this is such a common misconception?

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Curator

Oooooooh. That makes alot more sense and seems alot more dangerous than I had thought. I had never even considered combining the two. Thanks a bunch Krowe for clearing that up for me ^_^ . I wonder why this is such a common misconception?

Well, the two biggest culprits that I can see are human nature and a possibly misleading example.

People make assumptions all the time because most of us are just in too damn much of a hurry to slow down and absorb information at a sure, steady pace. We read about Physical Augmentation (from pg 157): "In rules terms, for each Vitae the player expends, he adds two dice to one Physical dice pool — one based on Strength, Dexterity or Stamina." and what sticks to us is +2 to Strength, Dexterity, or Stamina. It is only when we notice that such handling seems to make Physical Disciplines lacking that we stop to think about it... and even then we are still prone to speed-reading or jumping to conclusions 'obviously we need to buff Vigor, it's the only right thing to do'.

And the example beneath the single paragraph that describes Physical Augmentation doesn't help with the wording: "Three Vitae are pumped into his Strength" and "Maxwell’s player spends two more Vitae to raise Maxwell’s base Strength pool by four" possibly leading some to the line of thinking that the Strength Attribute was increased. Combined with the above reasoning, readers easily miss the significant of "base Strength POOL".

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I do wish Resilience was both a bit stronger in its effects and not such a math problem everytime you use it...

"Okay, I had six in health with one lethal, increased it to nine thanks to Resilience but with two bashing instead, added three to my Stamina minus attackers dice pool, receive three damages of Lethal, beat the crap out of the dude, then turn off resilience, loose teh three in stamina, loose the three in health, the two bashing become one lethal again, the 3 new lethals are added up etc etc etc...."

Seems like an awfully complicated process for saying "I can take pain" in game terms...

The old potence and Fortitude were overpowered, but they were elegantly simple. The new vigor is actually not that bad, but the resilience is a muddled mess of rules that seek to diffuse its potential...and the drama in your scene.

Edited by pascale

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Curator

I do wish Resilience was both a bit stronger in its effects and not such a math problem everytime you use it...

"Okay, I had six in health with one lethal, increased it to nine thanks to Resilience but with two bashing instead, added three to my Stamina minus attackers dice pool, receive three damages of Lethal, beat the crap out of the dude, then turn off resilience, loose teh three in stamina, loose the three in health, the two bashing become one lethal again, the 3 new lethals are added up etc etc etc...."

Why does the intial one Lethal become two Bashing whenever Resilience is activitated? Resilience only downgrades Aggravated Damage and even then cannot effect Damage that was incurred before it was activated. And in the grand scheme, 2 Bashing takes the same resources to mitigate as a Lethal.

I do agree that the old Physical Disciplines were SO much more impactful on combat but I don't feel that the new renditions are unbalanced or have been over-corrected.

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I don't find them particularly unbalanced. I just find the rules contrived and not concise enough for something that sees use in battle, you know.

It really breaks the drama in an action scene, drama that's hard enough to pull off well in an RPG...

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