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Most Broken Discipline

What do you think is the most broken discipline? (TT Rules)  

62 members have voted

  1. 1. What do you think is the most broken discipline? (TT Rules)

    • Animalism
      5
    • Auspex
      2
    • Celerity
      8
    • Dominate
      8
    • Majesty
      10
    • Obfuscate
      3
    • Nightmare
      14
    • Protean
      5
    • Resilience
      5
    • Vigor
      2


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Donor
Broken doesn't necessarily mean twinked.

Stopping to think in such terms, Animalism is a bit broken in that it is entirely end-loaded. Early dots in it don't help nearly as much as other Disciplines but the later dots "make up for it".

As for Majesty and Nightmare, both are strong I don't think they need any nerfing.

True. Still, it's better to be end than front loaded, if for no other reason than high ranks are harder to reach.

Personally, I try to see animalism as a discipline needing a bit of creativity to get the juice out of it. I mean, with patience and work a flock of birds or pack of dogs could be trained to heed your commands, and never be out of reach with animalism 3.

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Personally, I try to see animalism as a discipline needing a bit of creativity to get the juice out of it. I mean, with patience and work a flock of birds or pack of dogs could be trained to heed your commands, and never be out of reach with animalism 3.

I agree... and no offence to anyone... but I don't find Animalism higher levels to be that broken at all... I mean really if you piss someone off the right way you can make them frenzy so that's not really that much of a benefit... if you use a little creativity and a lot of influence in the mortal realm you can even do it when you're not around... I'd prefer it that way over the line of sight that is Animalism 5... If you have a high resolve + composure it's dead simple to have someone enter a fear frenzy... light a torch and hold it up to their face...

as for level 4? you can take over the body of an animal... so it's dominate level 5 but only applying to animals... not that useful in the wrong hands... but in the right hands it can be remarkably useful... look at the movie Fallen and you'll see my point... broken or overpowered? I don't think so really... If you thought so you could easily switch those around and have the out-of-body power being level 5 as all the other out-of-body powers are level 5 {Auspex, Dominate, Protean, Obten, etc.}

Logan

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Donor

I voted Vigor. It gives you temp strength when you spend blood. However, it's more expensive than just buying the equivalent level of strength.

I also think resilience is also broken, in the "why should I buy this?" sort of way.

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I voted Vigor.  It gives you temp strength when you spend blood.  However, it's more expensive than just buying the equivalent level of strength.

I also think resilience is also broken, in the "why should I buy this?" sort of way.

This is amazingly simple to answer. Your strength starts at 1. Your Vigor starts at 0.

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Donor
I voted Vigor.  It gives you temp strength when you spend blood.  However, it's more expensive than just buying the equivalent level of strength.

I also think resilience is also broken, in the "why should I buy this?" sort of way.

a) Not when it's a Clan Discipline! Aaaand... It gives you the chance to have a TREMENDOUS temporary Strength beyond your normal strength.

B) Extra Health Levels + more Stamina. It's the best "survivor" discipline, because not only does it allow you to have more health, but to run for longer periods of time and resist physical supernatural hindrances a lot better (For example, any Awakened Magic that uses Stamina + Blood Potency as resistance is too easy to resist given enough Resilience -- 2+ always provides a considerable advantage). Resilience is often overlooked, and much underappreciated.

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Donor
Extra Health Levels + more Stamina. It's the best "survivor" discipline, because not only does it allow you to have more health, but to run for longer periods of time and resist physical supernatural hindrances a lot better (For example, any Awakened Magic that uses Stamina + Blood Potency as resistance is too easy to resist given enough Resilience -- 2+ always provides a considerable advantage). Resilience is often overlooked, and much underappreciated.

Are you sure that it counts as stamina for this?

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Donor
Are you sure that it counts as stamina for this?

Not only am I sure: It says so right on the discipline writeup. Just like Vigor adds more Strength, Resilience adds more Stamina, which is what adds the extra health levels. Thus, if a kindred activates Resilience 3 and has a Stamina of 2, his effective Stamina for the remainder of the scene is 5.

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Donor

Got to say Resilence is not a mage's best friend. brooding.gif

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Curator

Well, Vampires do need that kind of streight power bonus against Magi; Vampiric powers are very specific, where the Arcana very varied and, in general, more useful then a given level of a Gift or Discipline at various ranks. But, they also get inborn powers that balance out the fact that Magi are more varied, so...

Anyway, the Mage should use magic that dosn't use Stamina as a counter if he wants to defeat a Vampire then tongue2.gif.

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Donor

Ok.

Not broken then icon1.gif

Except, well, shouldn't there be disciplines that provide temporary resolve and temporary composure?

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Curator

Resolve, maybe, I could see that as logically making sense for a Vampire, but Composure I don't really see working as a Discipline. Though maybe a set of Dominate and Majesty devotions...

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Curator
Ok.

Not broken then icon1.gif

Except, well, shouldn't there be disciplines that provide temporary resolve and temporary composure?

From the Lancea Sanctum book, Constance is a Resolve booster and the Severi Bloodline posted here have Gravitas, which is a Composure booster.

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The problem I have with Constance is not the addition of levels of Resolve, but the addition of willpower. It gives you temporary willpower equal to the Constance level, which any twink can then spend for whatever they want. The penalty against not having temporary willpower when Constance deactivates is negligible. Because of this, I highly recommend modifying Constance to become Gravitas, and not add temp. willpower.

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Curator
The problem I have with Constance is not the addition of levels of Resolve, but the addition of willpower.  It gives you temporary willpower equal to the Constance level, which any twink can then spend for whatever they want.  The penalty against not having temporary willpower when Constance deactivates is negligible.  Because of this, I highly recommend modifying Constance to become Gravitas, and not add temp. willpower.

But the whole point of Constance is getting more Willpower, albeit for a scene. Personally, I don't see the twinkery in gaining the temp Willpower any more than I see Vigor or Resilience as being twinked.

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But the whole point of Constance is getting more Willpower, albeit for a scene. Personally, I don't see the twinkery in gaining the temp Willpower any more than I see Vigor or Resilience as being twinked.

I agree... Resilience adds stamina which effects your health raiting... so why shouldn't Constance add to your willpower raiting? that and it's only for a scene so no harm no foul...

Logan

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Curator

And, when the power fades and your Resolve drops, you lose Willpower. So if you have 1, use Constance to gain 3, spend 2, and then Constance wears off... you have none. You spend your own Willpower before dipping into the temporary stock from Constance.

Edited by krowe

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Donor
And, when the power fades and your Resolve drops, you lose Willpower. So if you have 1, use Constance to gain 3, spend 2, and then Constance wears off... you have none. You spend your own Willpower before dipping into the temporary stock from Constance.

Exactly!

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Donor

If you spend your willpower you gain from constance is it still considered to have been spent at the end of the scene?

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Donor

Yup, just like the way the health levels double around when they disappear.

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Curator
If you spend your willpower you gain from constance is it still considered to have been spent at the end of the scene?

Short answer, yep.

Longer answer, you spend "your" Willpower first and once your natural Willpower is expended THEN you are spending the bonus Willpower from Constance.

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Well, Vampires do need that kind of streight power bonus against Magi; Vampiric powers are very specific, where the Arcana very varied and, in general, more useful then a given level of a Gift or Discipline at various ranks. But, they also get inborn powers that balance out the fact that Magi are more varied, so...

Anyway, the Mage should use magic that dosn't use Stamina as a counter if he wants to defeat a Vampire then tongue2.gif.

But don't mages gain a sort of equivalent to Resilience regardless of which arcana they choose?

If memory serves, any arcana grants a shielding effect whose power increases at each dot...

That would seem to push the balance of power squarely in the mage's side, especially now that they can all heal themselves like vampires do....

I agree with the sentiment that Obtenebration is laughably useless as a discipline in Requiem. Such a passive/sensorial discipline seems very much out of character for a warrior bloodline, especially when it doesn't help to affect the dark spirits they are supposed to be fighting. I don't believe either that the only alternative to it is to return to the broken version of Masquerade. Something in the middle should be possible.

Of the ten main disciplines, I think dominate is the most unbalanced. It is equally front and end loaded, although it's first three disciplines (which makes them cheap and easily accessible) are among the most useful and versatile powers available, and cost nothing at all to implement...

The only balancing fact is that they are somewhat redundant as each power builds on the last: 1)simple commands, 2) complexe commands (which can do simple) and 3) rewriting memories and implanting deeper commands, (which can do simple and complexe commands)...

At the same time, however, Dominate is probably the most focused discipline in the book: it follows its theme the best...

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Curator

Magi do have the ability to cast Armor spells on themselves, starting at level 2, in each Arcana. Healing, however, requires Life (or, iff there is inborn healing that's slipping my mind, it uses Mana...much harder to get access to then Vitae). But, like all their spells, the Shielding spells can be dispelled or can fail in casting. A Vampire can't really fail in activating his abilities. He also dosnt' have to contend with Paradox when he activates his more dynamic powers.

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Magi do have the ability to cast Armor spells on themselves, starting at level 2, in each Arcana. Healing, however, requires Life (or, iff there is inborn healing that's slipping my mind, it uses Mana...much harder to get access to then Vitae).

There is one that is inborn and uses mana. But while it is harder to heal themselves that way than for vampires (in the sense that it is perhaps slower--and then even there, they don't risk their wisdom in acquiring it the way vampires risk their humanity), they have multiple ways of healing themselves. In addition to the shieldings, each arcana is massively versatile in uses. They can mimic or even improve on any ability a vampire can do...

But, like all their spells, the Shielding spells can be dispelled or can fail in casting.

Dispelling a mages' abilities mostly requires one to be a mage. Perhaps the rare vampiric sorcerer could act in some similar fashion, but they are rare. On the other hand, mages can certainly come up with spells that inhibit the vampiric abilities...

A Vampire can't really fail in activating his abilities. He also dosnt' have to contend with Paradox when he activates his more dynamic powers.

He doesn't face paradox, but he can fail in activating his disciplines, with usually adverse effects (such as obfuscate sending a beacon of attention to everyone around, rather than concealing the user)...

The real balancing aspect is the fact that vampires are hardier and can take on more punishment...

but this is off topic, blush.gif

Edited by pascale

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Donor

On the Vampires vs Mages issue: Simulations prove that Neonates lack the versatiliy of newly Awakened Mages, but have considerably higher physical abilities. As the power levels rise, Vampires have an easier time kicking Mage ass in combat.

Which is the main reason individual mages should avoid vampires at all costs.

Back to your regular schedule, folks.

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Donor

Majesty 2 is probably the worst power ever conceived.

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