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hybridfive

Stormlords need help

Can Stormlords receive aid (such as medical attention) from others  

53 members have voted

  1. 1. Can Stormlords receive aid (such as medical attention) from others

    • Yes
      35
    • No
      4
    • It's more complicated than yes or no (and explain)
      14


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This came up during an in character situation. One of the local Storm Lord sisters on white-wolf.com was attacked by a spirit of cold and despair. She got agged up real quick, before the others chased the spirit off. The result of the damage was hypothermia. She started shivering and freezing. Another of the Storm Lord sisters called for those around them to get blankets and comforters to keep her warm. But, in an act that I found extremely hypocritical, she refused her sister medical attention, siting the ban as the reason.

Playing a Bone Shadow, my comment was rather philosophical. "I would think it's more a sign of weakness to refuse help when its necessary, rather than accepting it and fixing the problem." This obviously didn't go over too well with the Storm Lord, but I believe the point remains valid.

I think that everyone here can agree that pride is a weakness (my argument in support of this is that the gift 'sense weakness' can potentially reveal pride, or any other vice). Refusing medical aid when it's necessary seems to me to be a good example of pride. It's essentially saying 'Theoretically, I'd rather prove a point about my toughness than survive.' That, to me, seems like a weakness I could clearly exploit.

Thoughts?

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Curator

Being injured and suffering the effects isn't a weakness any more than suffering Agg from silver is. For the purpose of the SL ban, I take it to focus on personal weaknesses or disabilities. Moreso, I take it to focus on the things that aren't common knowledge.

No SL is going to be gigged for their ban for displaying Agg damage because it is obvious and everyone knows that the Agg has nothing to do with the SL herself. The weakness is inherent in the Uratha condition and isn't a secret to anyone. Now, if she had some weird curse/flaw that made her take Agg from tinfoil, then I could see the ban encouraging her to hide the source of any such wounds (though not the wounds themself).

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I agree with your position, hybrid.

Playing a Bone Shadow, my comment was rather philosophical. "I would think it's more a sign of weakness to refuse help when its necessary, rather than accepting it and fixing the problem." This obviously didn't go over too well with the Storm Lord, but I believe the point remains valid.

That's how I see it as well. Of course, that doesn't mean that individual Storm Lords can't disagree. The final arbiter is none other than Winter Wolf (and the ST icon1.gif ), who's, usually, not talking.

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I agree with your position as well, hybridfive. Suffering wounds is not weakness, but succumbing to your pride is. By refusing medical assistance for her sister, the character could very well be in violation of her tribal ban.

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Perhaps ther charater isn't so much prideful, but feels "Tempted" and thinks that it's against his ideology, and suffers a bit of a moral quandry. Of course, this could be quickly resolved when the character feels the gaze of Skolis-Ur upon him for his stupidity. (I think it's skolis-ur, i'm not at my home right now, don't heve my books.)

But of course, if the character had the proper skills and wanted to really "Live up to his ideals" He could act really hardcore and perform treatment on himself.

Edited by Galen

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The only time I would see recieving medical aid as weakness is when it was your weakness that led to the need for aid in the first place. I.E. Said Stormlord suffered so much from the attack because he was impetuous and refused to wait to more information, or whatever. Or because he let the spirit exploit some other weakness of his.

From the way it sounds, the stormlord didn't get beat-up due to weakness, only to bad luck. So I see no problem.

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Perhaps ther charater isn't so much prideful, but feels "Tempted" and thinks that it's against his ideology, and suffers a bit of a moral quandry. Of course, this could be quickly resolved when the character feels the gaze of Skolis-Ur upon him for his stupidity. (I think it's skolis-ur, i'm not at my home right now, don't heve my books.)

Well, based on the limited information I've written, I can see how you might think this a possibility. However, the sister's exact response to my comment was "Are you telling me how to be a Storm Lord?," which amused me to no end. I replied "Clearly you think I am," and pretty much left it at that.

Hijacking my own thread a bit here... but I look strangely at jerkish Fortitude/Pride and Fortitude/Wrath characters (which seem to comprise about 80% of the Storm Lords I meet, and about 50% of the Blood Talons). I always wonder if they're intentionally playing a character that's going to end up like Olivia Citysmith (WoD: Chicago p201), or if they're doing it because they misguidedly think that bossing people around puts you in charge. I tend to suspect it's the latter.

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Hijacking my own thread a bit here... but I look strangely at jerkish Fortitude/Pride and Fortitude/Wrath characters (which seem to comprise about 80% of the Storm Lords I meet, and about 50% of the Blood Talons).  I always wonder if they're intentionally playing a character that's going to end up like Olivia Citysmith (WoD: Chicago p201), or if they're doing it because they misguidedly think that bossing people around puts you in charge.  I tend to suspect it's the latter.

And I tend to agree...

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Playing a Bone Shadow, my comment was rather philosophical.  "I would think it's more a sign of weakness to refuse help when its necessary, rather than accepting it and fixing the problem."  This obviously didn't go over too well with the Storm Lord, but I believe the point remains valid.

I think that everyone here can agree that pride is a weakness (my argument in support of this is that the gift 'sense weakness' can potentially reveal pride, or any other vice).  Refusing medical aid when it's necessary seems to me to be a good example of pride.  It's essentially saying 'Theoretically, I'd rather prove a point about my toughness than survive.'  That, to me, seems like a weakness I could clearly exploit.

Thoughts?

I'd have to disagree... weakness comes in any number of forms... she was clearly left weak by the attack and since werewolves heal naturally I think it would be up to the individual Storm Lord as to weither or not they give aid... she was probably just thinking that getting your ass handed to you is a sign of weakness and thereby not wanting to tend to the weakness of someone who got their ass handed to them by a cold spirit...

Pride is merely pride... no different from any of the other Vices {or Virtues} and the gift specifically says that it won't show any weaknesses that are part of the race that you're using it on... since werewolves tend to be rather prideful beings anyway I'd say that it wouldn't have a chance of working at all...

that arguement as to weither or not it would detect a Vice kind of reminds me of a discussion I had with a player once who thought you could use that gift to determine if another character had less physical traits than they did thinking that would make them "weaker" than the person using the gift... to which I only laughed...

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Donor

I voted yes, but I do think your example depends. The storm lord is in violation of the ban if he asks for blankets to be more comfortable. He's not in violation if he asks for someone to perform that rite that heals agg wounds, or for receiving the basic required medical attention.

So for the example in question, it depends on if using the blankets would actualy be needed to save the character's life (I would rule no given we're still talking about an Uratha here, regardless of agg, but it's an STs call on this), so if I was running the game, I would say letting people know that you would like blankets is in violation.

However, since people already saw the weakness if the blankets are offered, it's a moot point at that situation, regardless of how the storm lord acts afterwards (although she could obviously commit more harmony 7 violations).

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Oooh, goody, a dissident.

I'd have to disagree... weakness comes in any number of forms... she was clearly left weak by the attack and since werewolves heal naturally I think it would be up to the individual Storm Lord as to weither or not they give aid... she was probably just thinking that getting your ass handed to you is a sign of weakness and thereby not wanting to tend to the weakness of someone who got their ass handed to them by a cold spirit...

The basic counterargument to this point is pretty simple: some weaknesses are universal enough that they should be ignored. Yes, she is clearly weaker than the damage she received, since it converted to agg. But that's the natural frailty of having physical form. If we punish Storm Lords for this, they'd be in violation of their ban every time someone shot them, because werewolves aren't strong enough to stop bullets with their chestplate.

It's like the cop says in Harold and Kumar, "Bullets, my only weakness. How did you know?" Obviously I'm being excessive to prove the point, but I think it serves its purpose. Weakness should refer to the individual, and not the species.

Pride is merely pride... no different from any of the other Vices {or Virtues}  and the gift specifically says that it won't show any weaknesses that are part of the race that you're using it on... since werewolves tend to be rather prideful beings anyway I'd say that it wouldn't have a chance of working at all...

By rule, it comes up during a use of Sense Weakness if it is in fact that person's Vice. I don't see how you can even argue against that. Like you said, it's no different from any other Vice of the seven.

More to the point, pride is NOT a racial trait, no more than wrath is a racial trait for beings that frenzy. It's only people's interpretation of pride that makes it a werewolf trait. If you look at a pack mentality, that is the opposite of pride. It is humility, and providing for the others around you, as well as yourself. Even the Alpha has a responsibility to provide for the basic health and wellbeing of the functional and contributing members of the pack. That's in fact the genesis of Skolis' ban, is that he thought that the other Forsaken became fearful when they saw him cry. He hid his pain not to protect himself, but to protect the others.

The ONLY way pride comes into play is through human interpretation. It is a character choice. Whether players are conscious of the choice their character is making is another thing entirely.

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Oooh, goody, a dissident.

come on man... you didn't think I was going to let you get away with me just towing the party line and nodding my head... did you? *LOL*

The basic counterargument to this point is pretty simple: some weaknesses are universal enough that they should be ignored.  Yes, she is clearly weaker than the damage she received, since it converted to agg.  But that's the natural frailty of having physical form.  If we punish Storm Lords for this, they'd be in violation of their ban every time someone shot them, because werewolves aren't strong enough to stop bullets with their chestplate.

not necessarily if they got shot... but if they went crying to the gift "combat medic" every time they did asking for healing then they'd be in the ban portion of it... in this case I'd have had to been there to see what happened myself but from your description it could go either way...

It's like the cop says in Harold and Kumar, "Bullets, my only weakness.  How did you know?"  Obviously I'm being excessive to prove the point, but I think it serves its purpose.  Weakness should refer to the individual, and not the species.

By rule, it comes up during a use of Sense Weakness if it is in fact that person's Vice.  I don't see how you can even argue against that. Like you said, it's no different from any other Vice of the seven.

I agree that weakness should be individual... but I don't really think that a vice is a weakness anymore than I believe that a Virtue helps your character in any way... it's like nature/demeanor in the old system... they're just an aspect that helps out in roleplaying the character...

*shrugs* personal preference as a ST I suppose... I'd just never reveal the Vice trait as a ST... those sorts of things I've always let the players discover via roleplaying...

More to the point, pride is NOT a racial trait, no more than wrath is a racial trait for beings that frenzy.  It's only people's interpretation of pride that makes it a werewolf trait.  If you look at a pack mentality, that is the opposite of pride.  It is humility, and providing for the others around you, as well as yourself.  Even the Alpha has a responsibility to provide for the basic health and wellbeing of the functional and contributing members of the pack.  That's in fact the genesis of Skolis' ban, is that he thought that the other Forsaken became fearful when they saw him cry.  He hid his pain not to protect himself, but to protect the others.

not so much a racial trait... I think more a trait of the Storm Lords... which players really annoy me {as I'm sure they do you} when they take stuff like that that is practically spelled out in the Tribe description... I mean roleplaying is good... but that's cookie cutter roleplaying...

on the other hand of it... alot of the werewolf mentality revolves around being prideful... you need a certain ammount of confidence in your abilities to put up with the shit that they put up with on a daily basis... especially with the Storm Lords Tribe...

Logan

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not so much a racial trait... I think more a trait of the Storm Lords... which players really annoy me {as I'm sure they do you} when they take stuff like that that is practically spelled out in the Tribe description... I mean roleplaying is good... but that's cookie cutter roleplaying...

It is indeed. That's the basic point of my earlier tangent. I don't think people are conscious of the fact that they're on their way to becoming Bale Hounds, because they're playing the tribe 'as it's written.' I have yet to see a subtle Storm Lord.

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It is indeed.  That's the basic point of my earlier tangent.  I don't think people are conscious of the fact that they're on their way to becoming Bale Hounds, because they're playing the tribe 'as it's written.'  I have yet to see a subtle Storm Lord.

probably a sub problem of people thinking that roleplaying=loud... the louder you are the better your roleplaying... or the more stereotypical your character the easier it is to roleplay without thinking outside the box...

I think in werewolf though the tribe represents the way the character looks at the world... the Storm Lords try to be the alpha... and they're just playing what they think is the right way to do it {and the way everyone else is playing it as well}

Logan

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It is indeed.  That's the basic point of my earlier tangent.  I don't think people are conscious of the fact that they're on their way to becoming Bale Hounds, because they're playing the tribe 'as it's written.'  I have yet to see a subtle Storm Lord.

Considering I'm not very good at "Subtle", being a frikking WEREWOLF. An animal that thinks it's a man. Passions barely kept in check, every little step of the social dance making you want to jump out of your skin and go into Gauru, just to stop all the bullshit you keep hearing. Nah, I just don't think Werewolves, in general, are particularly good at subtlety, or can really put up with it for long.

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Considering I'm not very good at "Subtle", being a frikking WEREWOLF. An animal that thinks it's a man. Passions barely kept in check, every little step of the social dance making you want to jump out of your skin and go into Gauru, just to stop all the bullshit you keep hearing. Nah, I just don't think Werewolves, in general, are particularly good at subtlety, or can really put up with it for long.

This line of thinking makes no sense in the face of the part of the Oath which states "The Herd Shall Not Know." The concepts of Harmony and Renown to counter the themes of Rage and Urge. For Storm Lords, there's the added fact that they get Evasion as a gift. All these factors are there, written in the book, but somehow they get passed over, overwritten by the holdover idea from WtA that Rage = Power. Players need to realize that this was deleted, and it was deleted for a reason. Being mad no longer makes you cool.

By prescribing to the quoted belief wholeheartedly, you ignore half the game. The price for this is condemning every werewolf played this way either to the life of a Zi'ir, death at the hands of hunters, or death at the hands of those who would prevent hunters from discovering you. I can guarentee you that you don't follow this belief wholeheartedly, because everyone has preservation instinct.

By even espousing this belief, you've now bought into the very concept of louder=better roleplay that Logan mentioned in a post previous to this one. So you're a werewolf. So what. You can either

A)think "Rawr, I'm a werewolf" and essentially play the stereotype over and over, or

B) Get over it, and play the character as an individual.

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By even espousing this belief, you've now bought into the very concept of louder=better roleplay that Logan mentioned in a post previous to this one.  So you're a werewolf.  So what.  You can either

A)think "Rawr, I'm a werewolf" and essentially play the stereotype over and over, or

B) Get over it, and play the character as an individual.

I am rather fond of Option B!

Werewolves are creatures of passion, there is no disputing that fact. However, there is a great deal more to Uratha existence than anger and/or rage...the compulsion to hunt, loyalty to the pack and stewartship of one's territory are just a few powerful factors that come to my mind. Was there not more to the Hulk than just his rage!?! I hold the same is true for werewolves...

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This line of thinking makes no sense in the face of the part of the Oath which states "The Herd Shall Not Know."  The concepts of Harmony and Renown to counter the themes of Rage and Urge. 

Oh, my bad, you meant Stealth! When you said subtlety, I thought you meant play them as Machievellian Intrugers who could put Elder Vampires to shame! Yeah, too many players expect that the lunacy will cover everything up and go Apeshit in Gauru on main street at six pm. As to the Intrueige thing, I just really don't see too many werewolves going in for that.

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Oh, my bad, you meant Stealth! When you said subtlety, I thought you meant play them as Machievellian Intrugers who could put Elder Vampires to shame! Yeah, too many players expect that the lunacy will cover everything up and go Apeshit in Gauru on main street at six pm.  As to the Intrueige thing, I just really don't see too many werewolves going in for that.

When I say subtlety, I mean subtlety, encompassing all the definitions and applications the word possibly could imply. Those are:

sub·tle adj.

1. So slight as to be difficult to detect or describe; elusive: a subtle smile.

Difficult to understand; abstruse: an argument whose subtle point was lost on her opponent.

2. Able to make fine distinctions: a subtle mind.

3. Characterized by skill or ingenuity; clever.

Crafty or sly; devious.

Operating in a hidden, usually injurious way; insidious: a subtle poison.

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WhiteWolf

Injury in and of itself is not weakness. Attempting to do something when injured when the injury will significantly impair your performance --- and refusing help that would mitigate the situation --- is obviously prideful and thus weak. You are weak for ignoring the available resources at hand; going it alone is a sign of idiocy when werewolves are psychologically tied to the conecpt of a pack.

How the injury comes about, however, could be a sign of weakness. Charging in unprepared --- or taking too long to plan and giving the opposition plenty of chance to prepare and kick your arse --- that is weakness. Not keeping a level head is weakness. A stereotypical Rahu challenging a spirit when the pack's stereotypical Ithaeur is dealing with human or werewolf opponents is a sign that the Storm Lord has no idea how his pack should work together, and in a leader that is indeed a sign of weakness.

In general, you're showing weakness every time you do something that you know is sub-optimal before the fact. If you can hide this knowledge, you can get away with it --- unless you or one of your packmates is badly affected by it.

Bear in mind that that's just the most common view. There are some Storm Lords who see personal, individual responsibility as the yardstick to measure weakness. Others judge their use of available resources. Yet others go by the Storm Lord's contribution to his pack and territory. Each Storm Lord has their own way of measuring weakness and none have ever had Skolis-Ur prove them right or wrong --- except when their attitude lead to gross stupidity.

Hijacking my own thread a bit here... but I look strangely at jerkish Fortitude/Pride and Fortitude/Wrath characters [...] or if they're doing it because they misguidedly think that bossing people around puts you in charge. I tend to suspect it's the latter.

Fortitude/Pride or Fortitude/Wrath doesn't automatically lead to bossing people around. Pride and Wrath are indeed obvious flaws for a Storm Lord --- but beat in mind that your Vice is a personal weakness of the kind that Skolis-Ur expects you to rise up against. Being a self-important arsehole isn't going to get you into a leadership position, and thus is dumb. Flying off the handle is just as bad.

There's a fair bit on both weakness and leadership styles in the Storm Lords section of The Rage, of course[0].

[0]: As far as I can tell, this is not a spoiler. You already know that there's going to be a big chunk for each Tribe, and a section on Storm Lords without tips on weakness and leadership wouldn't be very useful.

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Donor

I think it's not that easy though. If you say have a club foot, letting it show and impare your duities is a tribal ban.

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I'm...not sure on this. Depends on the situation I guess.

But. If you're dying and (s)he refuses help because (s)he thinks (s)he's showing weakness, (s)he's showing weakness.

Maybe because this SL is so afraid of violating the ban, (s)he violate the ban by not violating the ban. :rolleyes:

Now I'm just getting silly.

Edited by szn

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Curator

Having just gotten my hands on Tribes of the Moon, I think it is very helpful it getting one's mind around the various Tribal Bans, particularly the Storm Lords. The key is the implication of the word Weakness. It isn't about not letting others see you when you are hurt or acting like you are hurt but in not letting them see that hurt impede you any more than it should. A Storm Lord whose just had the love of his life murdered is allowed to howl in grief and express sadness... but he'll be damned if he let's that grief get in his way.

Being in a Pack, even as its leader, means having and accepting help. But as that leader your every action should inspire your Pack to carry on rather than give up.

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Donor

So being a "tough guy" is all Storm Lord? Your explanation isn't working for me Krowe.

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The term "tough guy" is a bit blunt. It would be more precise, to quote the core book, to emphasize "strength and dignity". It's the responsibility of the Storm Lords to stand up when others would sit down. That's why I like them better than other leader splats, because their core mission has nothing to do with being in control of everything. An Invictus or a Silver Ladder is going to attempt to sit on top of everybody else of equal or lesser age/skill/rank/whatever, but a Storm Lord (a well-played Storm Lord) would be content with just being a member of the pack as long as the pack recognizes their strength (a morale officer position would be perfect for those Storm Lords without the mind or personality for being the leader).

I have yet to see a subtle Storm Lord.

Storm Lords aren't supposed to be subtle. They're supposed to be obvious so that their pack sees what they're doing. There's a difference between not being subtle and being bossy, however.

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