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Guest Jeebers

Indeed. Jeebers, Ana is agreeing with you in many respects, but also presenting the other side of the issue so that you'll be cognizant.

How do you think other users here feel when you frequently complain about White Wolf products they enjoy and authors they support?

Well, based on the wording of her post, I thought she was more telling me that her view of what a Storyteller is, is somehow superior. I thought that was going too far. However, I don't think that what I responded with could be termed a tirade, since a real one would be a LOT longer and more angry.

Now, for the most part, I don't complain. What I do try to do is post mixed opinions, which contain both "good" and "bad" aspects. I dunno, maybe you focused on the negative bits?

The only game author I honestly don't like is Achilli, the rest is actually pretty good. Especially in the older works, I tend to wish that the authors would be more content orientated and less vaguely descriptive. You aren't going to find people consulting many of the books during a game, and even when not gaming one must have a VERY good memory to recall where things are. That makes it hard on GM's, imho.

One of the things I really liked about the earlier setting books is that most of the characters had full stats, along with a page talking about their history (kinda wish more about personality, but oh well), and there was relatively detailed diagrams depicting npc relationships. The latter is really important, since it helps to know what the npc's will do when their actions affect one or more of their schemes/goals. When the npc's no longer have stats, or even much of a blurb about their history, or even anything talking about how they relate to others, you suddenly no longer have a setting anymore. What you have is a bare skeleton and a LOT of work if you want to make it a viable game. That really sucks since most of us purchase these books to make our lives as GM's easier. (me personally I take the opportunity to add in more detail, especially in areas that my particular group of PC's are investigating, but I gather that this attitude is a little unusual).

In fact, did you know that one of my former players is planning to move back to town when he gets the chance, mostly because he enjoyed my Chicago game that much? I had a chat with him once and was absolutely flabbergasted. I didn't think I'd affected him that deeply!

Steven, here's why:

Giovanni: Necrophiliac mafioso Roman Catholic necromancers, almost entirely Italian, with MASSIVE egos and money coming out of their ears, usually up to no good for the rest of the world since they're bent on ruling it by making their necromancy and ghostly bullying much easier.

Ravnos: Thieving, lying chaotic nomads with a penchant for deception and generally socially disrupting, and almost all belong to the Rom in Europe (at least all those who spend their time in Europe). This is a racial stereotype of the gypsies in Europe, ancient immigrants from India. As a clan, Ravnos have almost NO influence or political power, and thus don't have much of an effect on the game itself.

Setites: Very much the Egyptomania types, but they take the ancient Egyptian religion and warp it to idolize the exact *opposite* of the most fundamental aspect, that of Maat. In effect, they are a blasphemous parody of their parent culture. Also very much the one trick pony.

For replacements, I honestly believe that the Ravnos can be easily removed and replaced with Gangrel, Nosferatu, and Malkavians, and yet still have more depth than the original Ravnos.

The Setites seem like wannabe Lovecraftian cultists, in that they want to resurrect their dead deity and effectively corrupt the world in their image, breaking down social mores. I'd dump the whole Egyptomania thing, and go with the Baali for the same game role. The Baali are better at corruption and generic demon summoning, to be honest, and they fit the whole "unholy" aspect better.

The Giovanni, well, I think they are far too cartoonish to continue as they are. Plus, they're actively offensive to Roman Catholics and Italians. So, I'd rather replace them with the Cappadocians and their rare Lamia. Me, I'd like to have the Cappadocians be more about celebrating how precious life is, and about how the dead (and death) affected those who are still living. There's a whole branch of psychology and many religions dedicated to this, interestingly enough. Lots of holidays around the world, monuments etc.

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Well, based on the wording of her post, I thought she was more telling me that her view of what a Storyteller is, is somehow superior. I thought that was going too far. However, I don't think that what I responded with could be termed a tirade, since a real one would be a LOT longer and more angry.

Not at all, the point I was trying to make was that ST and GM are two different things as the games they come from are about different things. Dungeons and Dragons is more about the numbers, while WoD is much more reliant on the story. Of course you can play either like the other, but that is just how it generally goes. This does NOT mean that the way you run your games is wrong, I'm just offering a different perspective.

One of the things I really liked about the earlier setting books is that most of the characters had full stats, along with a page talking about their history (kinda wish more about personality, but oh well), and there was relatively detailed diagrams depicting npc relationships. The latter is really important, since it helps to know what the npc's will do when their actions affect one or more of their schemes/goals. When the npc's no longer have stats, or even much of a blurb about their history, or even anything talking about how they relate to others, you suddenly no longer have a setting anymore. What you have is a bare skeleton and a LOT of work if you want to make it a viable game. That really sucks since most of us purchase these books to make our lives as GM's easier. (me personally I take the opportunity to add in more detail, especially in areas that my particular group of PC's are investigating, but I gather that this attitude is a little unusual).

To counter argument.

When you are creating your own NPCs, you can use the player character's histories as ideas what to have in each game. For example, say we have a DA Vampire game with a coterie that's mostly High Clans, with maybe few Low Clan members. Now, you could use book NPCs, but what if one of the High Clan members had a strong connection to one of the low clan members? What if they were brothers, and their sires tore them apart. Creating the sires to fit the backgrounds would be easier than trying to find a fitting ones from the books. This also allows you to have complate control over their history, how they behave etc.

This might seem like a minor detail at first, but veteran players know these characters beforehand quite well. They might have even read the books themselves. And the more famous characers like Lucita or Vykos are so known that the players will guess what they are going to do. There is also the danger of the characters being called out of character if you don't portray them juuust right. The NPCs you create don't have these problems. The players can't second guess anything about them, and that enforces being IC much better. There are no books to look these guys up, either, so they just have to deal with them how they may.

This does not mean the NPCs are just in your head, however. Books have rules for statting out elders, and you can write down their basic personalities on your computer. It doesn't need to be long, just the basics.

Another reason why STs create NPCs is to carve their own spot into the world. Maybe they want to set the game in their hometown to ease the players into the story. Creating NPCs is easier in this situation, because the ST knows their own home much better than any writer would. And to people who live in different countries than USA, the books offered often misinterepent their country really badly. If they even get any based off their country. And then, some just enjoy creating their own little places into the setting.

As for you adding stuff, don't worry, most STs I know do that, to make the games fit better.

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Unblocked "someone" so will now answer, full stats? why would you want to have full stats on NPC's?

Key stats yes, I have no requirement to know a 2000 year old prince has computers 1...........

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Steven, here's why:

Giovanni: Necrophiliac mafioso Roman Catholic necromancers, almost entirely Italian, with MASSIVE egos and money coming out of their ears, usually up to no good for the rest of the world since they're bent on ruling it by making their necromancy and ghostly bullying much easier.

Ravnos: Thieving, lying chaotic nomads with a penchant for deception and generally socially disrupting, and almost all belong to the Rom in Europe (at least all those who spend their time in Europe). This is a racial stereotype of the gypsies in Europe, ancient immigrants from India. As a clan, Ravnos have almost NO influence or political power, and thus don't have much of an effect on the game itself.

Setites: Very much the Egyptomania types, but they take the ancient Egyptian religion and warp it to idolize the exact *opposite* of the most fundamental aspect, that of Maat. In effect, they are a blasphemous parody of their parent culture. Also very much the one trick pony.

For replacements, I honestly believe that the Ravnos can be easily removed and replaced with Gangrel, Nosferatu, and Malkavians, and yet still have more depth than the original Ravnos.

The Setites seem like wannabe Lovecraftian cultists, in that they want to resurrect their dead deity and effectively corrupt the world in their image, breaking down social mores. I'd dump the whole Egyptomania thing, and go with the Baali for the same game role. The Baali are better at corruption and generic demon summoning, to be honest, and they fit the whole "unholy" aspect better.

The Giovanni, well, I think they are far too cartoonish to continue as they are. Plus, they're actively offensive to Roman Catholics and Italians. So, I'd rather replace them with the Cappadocians and their rare Lamia. Me, I'd like to have the Cappadocians be more about celebrating how precious life is, and about how the dead (and death) affected those who are still living. There's a whole branch of psychology and many religions dedicated to this, interestingly enough. Lots of holidays around the world, monuments etc.

ok i can see that but all the clans are stereotype... hell the whole WtA is LOL

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Brujah are angry punks and anarchists.

Toreador are sex-fixated artists and dancers.

Ventrue are power-hungry psychopats.

Nosferatu are subterran hackers and spies.

Gangrel are animalistic and hobos (Hobo forever!).

Malkavian are uncontrolled chaos given form.

Lasombra are shadowy power-hungry psychopats.

Tzimisce are fleshshapers and rural lords.

Tremere are all nerds and bastards.

You can say that all clans are stereotypes, atleast as long as the stereotypes are nurtured. When you take a stance that you don't want the stereotypes, that's good. Now you need to make reasons for why not new stereotypes will pop up from the new stance and how the clans are "changed".

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Guest Jeebers

I disagree with all those versions of the clans. Even the game books present more variety than that. The criticisms I leveled apply to the ENTIRE clan (not just a few examples of each clan), as all of the game material directly points to those same stereotypes. The only premade character template that didn't make ANY sense (imo) was the inept computer hacker in the Gangrel Revised clanbook.

Only in the more recent years did the Ravnos become slightly more than thieving, lying gypsies (i hate even writing that phrase), with the introduction of Indian versions. DA tried to introduce "nobility" to the clan, with limited results that weren't backed up in other supplements.

Anyway, there's a reason why those clans I mentioned weren't more focused upon. They really are one trick ponies.

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well see thats what im saying...that they all have that stereotype but you dont have to play them as such... just sayting.

but back to topic...a book i would like to see would be one that foces on alternate realitys

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Curator

I would also like to see the Demon supplements previously mentioned, and for nWoD I'd like more books on the spirit world , spirits ghosts and the twilight state, and how they interact.

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I would like to see a NWoD Cosmology book.

My impression of it is something like this:

Dreams/ Creativity/ Imagination as some sort of special place where spirits are born out of concepts, or made by older spirits. Nightmares taking form because many people dream something similar. There's always a connection between humans and other weird places we normally don't perceive. Lets place the Imagination-sphere high up, for simplicity's sake.

In the middle we have the world humans in general live and breathe in. Actions humans do can ring out in other dimensions. In OWoD there was the discourse "what happened in other realms when the nukes went off?" and I think it can be worthwhile to pick up that discourse again and not only limit it to huge impacts, but also smaller actions. This middle realm is made physical from imaginations, the mental. Everything we create starts with an idea of what it should be, how it can be used. Thus we open us up for all sorts of mental influences, like good ideas, bad ideas, fantastic genious and utter horrific nightmare. Madness.

Vampires live here and feed from the population, not only with blood, but the humans are still connected to the other planes. Vampires starts out as static, and gain more and more connection with the Underworld as they become more and more inhuman. Werewolves can access the spirits directly, as can Mages and Changelings. The spirits aren't very happy with the Forsaken, and they have the choice to redeem themselves or go to the Underworld. Mages differ greatly, as some are happy to carve out a nice living by using magic, others want to explore the spirit realms. Mages are more aware human conduits between the spiritual planes, they can draw on energies from every plane to make things work according to the mage's will. Changelings have escaped Fairy, a realm that is both up and low at the same time, touching the middle realm here and there, making gateways. This is sort of an elevator realm, where the Fae have carved out their existence. This can be heaven, it can be hell, it can be anything in between. True Fae are powerful spirits that have banded together in a distinctly different way than other spirits. They compete with each other, a war that has been going on for millennia. They abduct people to use in their armies, some might even have breeding pens with humans to make shock troops.

Underneath we have the Underworld, where Death reigns. This is where spirits go to die. Spirits of humans, spirits of things, spirits of things that should not be, spirits of things that ceased to be. They want to reach the upper plane again, to be reborn/ remade, and might do anything they can to achieve that. In a way we can say that Geist is all about that. The geist have achieved a trip up to the middle realm, only one more step to go, and that's the hardest.

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Well, we offended the Italians, and we offended the Romani, so I figure we can do some more.

Why not World of Darkness: Redneck? Why does White Wolf have no love for my goat-roping, tobacco-chewing, pickup-truck-driving, George-Strait-listening kin? Why do vampires not quake in terror when they hear "Whoop! Whoop! Git R Done!"

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Well, we offended the Italians, and we offended the Romani, so I figure we can do some more.

Why not World of Darkness: Redneck? Why does White Wolf have no love for my goat-roping, tobacco-chewing, pickup-truck-driving, George-Strait-listening kin? Why do vampires not quake in terror when they hear "Whoop! Whoop! Git R Done!"

Clanbook Gangrel?

Runs (with Celerity)

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Guest Jeebers

Naw, closest they come is either Clanbook Giovanni (esp revised, did you know Achilli wrote both revised and the old version of their clanbooks? He is directly responsible for their sucking.) or I forget which books.

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You read about the Giovanni and think rednecks?

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there is a red neck mob

yes, but the Giovanni are Mafia rather than the Mob - also a redneck mob does not make at Mobsters Rednecks does it?

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"ah got mah winnibago all but filled up wi' guns, hardware of enny kind and got mah meth amphetamine lab wi' me whe'ever I go! Yeehaa!"

America: the Rednecks *dodges by spending glamour to upgrade my defense*

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Well, they do have "familial relations" with their cousins...

I thought with Rednecks it was siblings?

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Guest Jeebers

They sure as heck seem as poorly educated and as stereotyped as rednecks! They also seem to be going out of their way to be offensive, as if that is what defines what mature content means. Finally, their religious affiliation is completely at odds with what they are and what they do. Damned offensive to refer to themselves as Catholics.

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They sure as heck seem as poorly educated and as stereotyped as rednecks! They also seem to be going out of their way to be offensive, as if that is what defines what mature content means. Finally, their religious affiliation is completely at odds with what they are and what they do. Damned offensive to refer to themselves as Catholics.

why? seriously? do all bad guys need to basically be Nephandi?

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Guest Jeebers

No. The Giovanni are cartoonishly offensive at best. They don't fit the overall game setting.

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No. The Giovanni are cartoonishly offensive at best. They don't fit the overall game setting.

funny, they do in my games, they may be the extreme edge, but they fit.

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Guest Jeebers

I think it was the ritual where they mystically create dicks on a single corpse and then all sit down on it, raping it that got my attention. That and their attitude toward everyone else is notoriously megalomaniacal.

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Donor

More Demon books.

Vampire Ancient Times: Rome

Vampire Ancient Times: Carthage

Vampire Ancient Times: Greece

Vampire Areabook: Scandinavia by Night

Vampire Countrybook: France by Night

Vampire Countrybook: Germany by Night

Vampire Countrybook: Russia by Night - Behind the Iron Curtain

Vampire Citybook: Rome by Night

Vampire Citybook: Venice by Night

Vampire Citybook: Paris by Night

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Guest Jeebers

It's too bad that since I prefer the oWoD version of Vampire, none of that would be useful.

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