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Man in black

Salubri third eye

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I've read about the Salubri in storytellers handbook (Dark Ages and Masquerade), I've read in their clanbook, I've read through the Transylvania chronicle, but something still eludes me.

The third eye of the Salubri.

Has there ever been a canon explanation as to why it is there? I know Saulot recieved it after his journey to the east, and so, supposedly after he turned all "God doesn't care! Screw him, screw Caine, screw everybody, I'll be the master of the Jyhad! Moahaha!" (at least according to TC). So, bearing thet in mind, could the eye really be a soulsucking thing? Or is it just a 'natural' effect of Obeah?

Second sight?

Daemonic mark?

Does anyone actually know?

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Oh, yeah. I knew you developed it with Obeah (and Valeren I guess) but I think it's the second level. No matter...

But why on earth would Malkav give Saulot a third eye? What is it good for? It's somehow connected with Obeah/valeren, but if it's a gift from Malkav it would mean Malkav would have something to do with Obeah/valeren too wouldn't it?

Now I'm even more confused...

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Depending on how esoteric you want to get with it, the third eye is (while mechanically being a progression of the Obeah/Valeran) the sixth chakra *. After his trip to the Orient, Saulot is assumed to have become enlightened and broadened his mind beyond the normal petty concerns of a Cainite/Kindred. Concerned with harmony and balance he created both sets of his children (if you believe the Baali origin) to emulate this goal. But, it all depends on the spin you put on the creature in question. wink2.gif

As for Malkav...there could be two theories there. 1) he is a nutter or 2) It is a killer prank

*Light, Archetypal identity, oriented to self-reflection

This chakra is known as the brow chakra or third eye center. It is related to the act of seeing, both physically and intuitively. As such it opens our psychic faculties and our understanding of archetypal levels. When healthy it allows us to see clearly, in effect, letting us "see the big picture."

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Ok, so the third eye is starting to make more sense now. But Saulot mkes less sense than ever. What exactly is he up to? Is he bitter and sadistic or enlightened and caring, or maybe a little of both?

*edit*

To elaborate; after what I've read in the Transylvania Chronicle, he feel that god has treated him unjustly, and seek to be the master of the Jyhad and rule from the darkness. That doesn't sound like Golconda. That doesn't sound like balance. Or can the TC not be trusted?

Edited by Man in black
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The balance is mostly assumed by his creating the Salubri, the humanitarians, and Baali, who very much aren't (again if you believe thats who the baali came about which, to be fair, makes perfect sense.)

The only thing that doesnt make sense is why the Baali dont have the third eye, since the Chi'uh Muh has a P'o application.

(If you dont know anything about Kindred of the East, Chi'uh Muh is the Kuei-jin Discipline linked with the third eye. When control by the Hun, or higher soul, it can be used to spiritual clensings and such, but when controled by the P'o, it taints things (and allows you to steal souls at level 5)

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I have also seen ST's that have the third eye of the salubri open whenever they use the Auspex discipline, further re-enforcing the idea that it is a center of observation and knowledge. I had not read anywhere that Malkav gave Saulot the third eye, but it does not surprise me that it is a possible origin.

Spoilers from Gehennna Below>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In one of the scenarios that is offered as an end to Vampire: the Masquerade, the Antideluvians rise to see their final plans in the Jyhad come to fruition. Saulot's plan was one of the more elaborate.

-Aside to explain some backstory as I understand it:

Saulot initially created the Salubri, but after his visit to the far east he realized that they had failed in his goal (not sure how). Thus he created the Baali to try a differnet method of achieving an enlightened state, through either the actions of the Baali or the Salubri fighting them.

-end aside

Somehow this also failed, and He sought another method to gain the upper ahnd in the Jyhad. This he allowed Tremere to Diablarize him. This gave him a prefect place to hide and wait out the centruies until Gehenna, and a wonderful way to eliminate his direct progeny (salubri) that had failed him. He then usurps Teremere's body as makes war on his chief rival in the Jyhad the Tzimisce Antidelluvian, simply known as The Eldest.

I am still not 100% clear on what his trip to the east actually accomplished, but it definitly brought about a significant change in Saulot's outlook and goals. If anyone can offer some clarification/correction to any of this it would be appreciated.

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Saulot is arrogant in his humility. Gehenna talks about Saulot being arrogant enough to know that he would eventually defeat Tremere in the end. He was right but his hubris caused him go fall from Golconda and this has made him very, very unhappy.

As for the third eye, look at its symbolism more than its physical or mechanical properties. This is a storytelling game after all.

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Vague reprisal of a rant I posted a few months back...

I'd put the origin of the third eye as a side effect of Saulot studying under Xue. As lungripper pointed out, this is a feature and focus of the Chi'uh Muh (Dragon Tears) discipline. In order to use this Discipline, the Kuei-jin had to utilise the sight through the third eye - when Saulot bastardised Chi'uh Muh and created Obeah, he picked up the eye along with it.

As to how to portray Saulot so he still makes sense... I was always a fan of Saulot the Flake to be honest. I mean, let's take a look at it. He sired more bloodlines - directly - than any other antedeluvian. All as part of his search for enlightenment - not "good"; enlightenment. Saulot is more like a greedy scholar, looking to achieve his perfection, and to hell with the costs. Note that "his" perfection also includes the ability to create perfect children, hence all the guineapigs over the years.

[Note - the following is my interpretation of events, and certainly ain't chronological.]

He creates the Baali as an experiment - killing three infernalists and spitting upon their corpses to imbue them with vitae. The three turn to evil - what can be learned from this? Saulot encourages their foulness, in case there's anything to it. But they fail to amount to the levels Saulot desires.

He heads East, encounters the Grand Arhat Xue, who deigns to accept the monster as a pupil. But as soon as Saulot gets any talent for Chi'uh Muh / Obeah, he decides he can't keep it in his pants and starts Embracing to create his new "perfect" children - ending up with the Wu Zao bloodlines. So of course he gets run out of town for being an utter monster and torturing others with his vile curse.

Similar deals come with the Healer and Warrior Salubri, and the Nkulu Zao, though I've not really thought about this enough to flesh them out. My head hurts.

I really, really dislike the idea of a "good" antedeluvian. But I do like the idea that Saulot may have been "good" for a time, to see what happened. I also like the above approach because it explains how the Tremere got away with their persecution of the clan - they really could be soul-eating monsters, and they were too disorganised and distrusted by outsiders to make a good stand.

My opinion, anyway.

Morrigan

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I forget where I read or heard this, but here goes: After he goes seeking enlightenment he asks for forgiveness/makes some insight and then an angel (one of biggies) kissed his forehead, causing him to sprout the third eye where he was kissed.

Off topic, but it would have been cool (and by cool I mean made as much sense as any of the other stuff that was going on) if the Salubri and Nosferatu had created a hybrid line that could 'hide' the third eye in a face full of bruises or otherwise so ugly no one would notice. tongue2.gif I mean, how exactly are you going to prove that the three eyed Nos isn't just more of a freak of nature but also a disguised Salubri/Obeah user? (Besides, finding out would entail actually finding the Nos in question, and who wants that?) happy.gif

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The thing is though, it's not a bloodline thing, but a discipline thing.  If a brujah learns Obeah, he also gets the third eye, right?

I thought they automatically got the third eye automatically upon the embrace (regardless of how much Obeah they learn)? I'd asumed the rule was for non Salubri who learned it. I mean, if it were entirely dependent on Obeah then clan survival would have been much easier by pretending they belong to another clan. All they'd have needed to preserve the clan is a new batch of neonates and told them "Never, ever learn Obeah!".

I see. Saulot is a whily one isn't he?

How come he and the Eldest are such fierce rivals? They both seek somewhat of the same goal doesn't they? (Or is that it?)

The same reason two researchers investigating the same subject choose to compete rather than combine resources. Competitiveness, pride, hubris. Both want essentially the same thing but go about it in oposite ways (Mind vs. Body), it might be Saulot doesn't trust what Tzimisce would do if successful or is just jealous of anothers' possible success. Now there's a thought, suppose BOTH had been successful by Gehena. Oh what a fight that could have been. evilgrin.gif

Edited by Blank Frank
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Where is it stated that Saulot and Tzimisce are such fierce rivals?

They are rivals, to be sure, as are all Antediluvians. And in the Transylvania Chronicles, this specific rivalry was pointed out (to some degree) simply due to the geographical location.

But beyond that, (and beyond the one Gehenna-optional scenario) where is there "fierce" (and Im assuming, pointed) rivalry demonstrated?

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The balance is mostly assumed by his creating the Salubri, the humanitarians, and Baali, who very much aren't (again if you believe thats who the baali came about which, to be fair, makes perfect sense.)

The only thing that doesnt make sense is why the Baali dont have the third eye, since the Chi'uh Muh has a P'o application.

Simple. If you go according to the books, Saulot didnt have his third eye when he embraced the Baali. They never would have had the chance to pick up the power. Also, paying attention to Obeah / Valaren, it is really a bastardization of Chiuh Muh (If that is even really where it came from). Most of the effects are different and overall, the powers are markedly different, even the combat one (Which bears no real resemblence to the Po based powers).

I thought they automatically got the third eye automatically upon the embrace

No, upon learning the second or third level, I forget which one, they get it. IVe played Salubri without the third eye (their Obeah hadnt gotten high enough yet).

He creates the Baali as an experiment - killing three infernalists and spitting upon their corpses to imbue them with vitae. The three turn to evil - what can be learned from this? Saulot encourages their foulness, in case there's anything to it. But they fail to amount to the levels Saulot desires.

Actually, Id dispute this. Saulot seems to have embraced the Baali mostly on a pique of decadence. He wanted to show them what true foulness was and if they survived then all the more power to them. Remember, he was enraged to find out that the Baali were messing with his new pets, the Salubri. And he drove his warriors to their deaths trying to slaughter the Baali. This is what likely led him to abandon the Salubri as well. They werent strong enough to take out his bastard children.

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I thought they automatically got the third eye automatically upon the embrace (regardless of how much  Obeah they learn)? I'd asumed the rule was for non Salubri who learned it. I mean, if it were entirely dependent on Obeah then clan survival would have been much easier by pretending they belong to another clan. All they'd have needed to preserve the clan is a new batch of neonates and told them "Never, ever learn Obeah!".

Not really. Firstly, that means that you're trusting the neonates - and let's face it, young vampires aren't the type to listen to their elders. About anything. Secondly, that would mean that the clan elders are accepting that they would die, but the clan would live on. Which is the kind of altruism you don't find amongst elders. Fuck the clan living on. I want to live on. The Salubri were not good people. The Healers could do good, yes, but there were also the Warriors. Who weren't about to accept defeat.

Actually, Id dispute this.

It's just how I play things in my game - a slight re-interpretation because I hate 'good' vampires, which is what Saulot is so often portrayed as in the books.

Saulot seems to have embraced the Baali mostly on a pique of decadence. He wanted to show them what true foulness was and if they survived then all the more power to them. Remember, he was enraged to find out that the Baali were messing with his new pets, the Salubri. And he drove his warriors to their deaths trying to slaughter the Baali. This is what likely led him to abandon the Salubri as well. They werent strong enough to take out his bastard children.

The theory still works even under that scenario. He creates the Baali, then abandons them. Then gets uppity when his new project is threatened, throws a tantrum, and looses both. Just a matter of interpretation icon1.gif

Morrigan

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Secondly, that would mean that the clan elders are accepting that they would die, but the clan would live on. Which is the kind of altruism you don't find amongst elders. Fuck the clan living on. I want to live on. The Salubri were not good people. The Healers could do good, yes, but there were also the Warriors. Who weren't about to accept defeat.

Actually, the reason that they were probably able to do this is because the elders were probably the first to go. Think of it like this, if youre going to wipe out a clan, you go for the elders. The neonates and ancillae are those who are more or less negligable because without an ante and elders, the clan looses its backing as a whole. No power base means that the other clans will likely take their oppurtunities at pot shots against rivals now as well.

And while the warriors werent actually about to accept defeat (it even talks about there being those saulbri who were basically turning into avenging angels in the DA companion) they were still bound by their clan weakness to help those in need. Its easily exploitable.

It's just how I play things in my game - a slight re-interpretation because I hate 'good' vampires, which is what Saulot is so often portrayed as in the books.

Thats my thing; I dont see the Salubri as "good" vampires by any measure. Altruisitic possibly, but I dont see it as good. Golconda is a selfish path to walk anyways. Its all about redemption of the self. Doing good is just a means to an end for a Golconda seeker even if it is more than a myth. I dont see anything out of character about a group of vampires that seek redemption, but making the assumption that every Salubri is a goody goody is like assuming that every Toreador is a artist. Its a generalization thats pretty deadly for those vamps involved. The warriors are the only ones who come off as "Must do good" and that always rang more to me of chivalry to an extreme more than anything.

The theory still works even under that scenario. He creates the Baali, then abandons them. Then gets uppity when his new project is threatened, throws a tantrum, and looses both. Just a matter of interpretation icon1.gif

Thats my thing. I just dont see what he was doing as anything more than him indulging in some bloodlust and he puts the blood into the pit. He could have been trying to embrace those who survived, thus cursing them with true darkness, or he could have been trying to profane their ritual pit with his blood. In either case, he didnt create the Baali as it were, thats more my point. He embraced a couple of survivors to his rampage and then left them be. They formed the Baali on their own and he flipped out when one of his own childer betrayed him to the Baali.

Its always come off as him having done the whole embrace at the sacrificial pit on a pique of interest and when things spiraled downhill, it was his fault, so he flipped out. Whether he was good before or not (which I personally doubt) he went fairly overboard at the destruction of his warriors.

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The 'help those in need' thing isn't as exploitable as you'd think. It's like the Boggan flaw in that the one defining "need" and what kind of "help" to give is the Salubri. Maybe the best way to help that poor mother whose husband died leaving her with a six-pack of children to look after is to take away some of her kids... sure, she might not like it, but it's better than them all starving to death.

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Like I say, it's just a theory icon1.gif But you must admit that the 'Good' Saulot bit was certainly played up as the gameline went on, to him becoming a messanger of God in two (?) Gehenna scenarios.

Id just like to go on record that every single last ToJ scenario (Except the Werewolf ones) at some serious monkey nards. Hardcore.

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