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About World_Dancer

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    Shadow Master
  • Birthday 05/27/1979

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    Bethel, CT
  1. Modern Female Gothic 1.2

    No, because it's not written by a woman. That's where the whole female thing comes in. Personally, I'm tracing a heritage from Jane Eyre and Rebecca to see what it says about how women view themselves today, both the authors and the readers, which is why my focus in this case is so narrow. Gothics are traditionally the writing form women use to show where they disagree with social expectations and to map ways to success through difficult expectations. That gothics are making a comeback (mislabeled for popular consumption or not) is really interesting as far as what it says about people. Not that the suggestion isn't helpful. Trying to keep up with everything written in any given area, particularly one that's exploding is difficult. And I need to read slightly broader as well or I can't pick out which details are unique. So I'll have to at least check it out to see if its "Gothic" or not. Men writing in similar style are usually drawing more on the heritage of hard-boiled detective mysteries or straight out horror (Butcher, Stoss, Green). Women are usually drawing on the heritage of "modern literature" (as opposed to genre work) or sometimes the world of possibilities offered by social scifi stuff (scifi is the other "subversive" genre). I'm not sure if they're pulling on the romance genre so much as romances are now barrowing from gothics. That Men care more about solving the problem and women care more about managing the social nuances is probably the best way to put it, at least as a guideline for the differences between men and women writing in this case. There are other differences, and I'm sure there's exceptions.
  2. Modern Female Gothic 1.2

    I'm still faithfully reading away at my list. I have to if I ever want to reach my goal of serious paper. Review of the Moment is Lilith Saintcrow's Dante Valentine series, which is apparently designed to be only 5 books long. It's outside what I intended to look at, but I picked up the whole set anyway because I was entertained by the first novel. This one is Scifi with added supernatural elements. Dante is an accredited Necromance (talks to Death and the dead) and also a bounty hunter in a far future world. The demon Japh forces her to visit with the Devil because the Devil wants her working for him on a job. He also gives her Japh as her demon minion (Japh appears to be second most powerful demon, so this is a huge step down for him to be a human woman's lackey). The novels are divided up into 1 & 2 being nearly stand alones, with just a small bit of story arc to them, and then the last three books all deal with another bounty for the Devil and are a trilogy within the series. Dante is strong, has a special supernatural connection to the world that is all her own, and has made a life for herself. She's got a close group of friends, and while she starts off the series claiming to only work alone we only see her working in a group. At the same time she openly admits to being whiney and petulant. Well, I'd really rather see a flawed heroine than a Mary Sue. She achieves a heck of a lot more power through taking Japh as a lover, and recieves additional contracts with the Devil because of it. Refreshingly, the number of men who want to sleep with her is kept to a minimum. Most of what she gains is achieved by her own skill with supernatural matters. Most of her mysteries, however, come through her contact with Japh and the Devil, as they never ever tell her enough information about what they want from her. It's simply the way of the demons in this world, so much as she hates it and fights it, she can never stay completely angry about it. This is also interesting for seeing Dante actually capable of maintaining friendships with another female, unlike many of the Gothics. The writing style has its repetitions, but they're artistically effective, so not nearly as annoying. There are some language issues I have where the author appears to have chosen completely the wrong word for her meaning and the editor didn't catch it, but these are only really a problem in the first book. She also has a habit of thinking something and then saying it, which can be irritating. The pacing is relatively fast, and while Dante is occaisionally annoying in her angsting, the action and pacing saves it, as does the demon manipulations. I think the writer does get a bad rap for her name, which is apparently genuine rather than made up to be dramatic, and for having two series with characters named Dante, which I still find a bit suspicious, having not read the other one. Still, this is an intriguing series, deals with a lot of darker issues of abuse and lack of confidence, and it's tightly written. If you've liked some of the other authors I've mentioned, you should like this series. And, since I've now mentioned a Scifi series which I'm going to shortly take off my list unless I really want to go into the archetypical female story, let me also add another series that I didn't mention previously: Wen Spencer's Tinker and Wolf Who Rules. There's only two books in this fantasy fairy tale. Tinker is an inventor in Pittsburgh, which is on a kind of magical fault line and now spends most of its days in a parallel fantasy universe filled with elves. Tinker ends up saving Wolf Who Rules, who then turns her into an elf and takes her as his mate as a reward. Most of Tinker's cool powers come from her inventing great machines to do things. She defeats her foes with smarts and doesn't particularly fight much. That's what bodyguards are for. She's more got strength of will on her side. She doesn't have much of a job other than playing in her junkyard of parts. Her eventual political power comes from Wolf and from the bodyguards she controls. There are hints that this may become a herem tale, but as of the second book it hasn't. The first book is more fun, the second book has a definite depression in regards to some of its content, but its used well and to make a point rather than just shock value. The pacing is slow on occaision, but its still relatively interesting. And strangely parallels nicely with Dante Valentine as both women are pushed into cultures they don't fully understand and have to figure out the rules on the fly. They've got a nice compilation of both Tinker books at the scifi book club. This is a good complilation for people who liked Mercedes Lackey's Elven Racecar Drivers, or who would like them without all the heavy content about child abuse. They're not happy shiney books, but the dark bits are minimal.
  3. [Hunter: the Vigil] Splat Speculation

    Well, if we're guessing at splats, how about: Religious: Monsters are evil, kill them for your god of choice. Scientific: Monsters are explainable by science if only you research them hard enough. Harvesting: Monster bits are good for magic experimentation. Through killing monsters you gain power. similar to Scientific. Defenders: FBI/Police types who are devoted to defending a human's right to exist unmolested by the supernatural. I come down on the side of few if any powers for the characters. I prefer HH to H:tR, which I despise. I would find some small amount of powers acceptable. Perhaps based on having superior skills and attributes; powers could then be an extension of the obcessive training of the hunter.
  4. New Hunter

    Well, they've got me curious. At least according to the "what its not" bit in the Quarterly it's not a group of people just "suddenly" empowered by something yesterday. My opinion is largely going to be based on how much supernatural junk hunters have. If they are very supernatural then I'm not going to go for it. I just don't want uber-powerful humans hunting monsters in WoD. To me, it just doesn't fit with the mood. Though I give them credit for being smart enough to use the phrasing monster rather than supernatural in the "What its Not" preview. The "we're not supes" hypocrisy of the H:tR line is one of the reason I hate it rather than just disliking it.
  5. Staff Training

    Sigh. Quite a few people seem to be missing the point or thinking its about something else. I in no way avoid a reprimand by doing this. If all I wanted was an out, I'd save my arguing for when I needed an out, not when I have no warning levels to my name and am in no danger. This actually gives a wider number of people the chance to think poorly of me for pointing out current flaws in the way things are handled. There are very few people who would volunteer for what they know is going to be additional social punishment from at least some posters in the hopes of making things better overall. My understanding of this site is that the owner wished to create and foster a community devoted to White Wolf in which diverse posters could debate diverse items. I also have this idea that the staff, being volunteers and devoted fans, should have the overall goal of being good administrators over a happy community rather than being petty despots. When faced with a problem, if all you do is shout "shut up" (paraphrased for shortness) then you do not, in fact, resolve many problems. It works if people are still on cordial terms and things have somehow gotten out of hand. It does not work if there are other problems, or if things have gone beyond the cordial level. You gloss over one problem only to have it pop up elsewhere because it never went away or the bad feelings on the part of the posters never went away. Such problems are not resolved and putting on blinders and pretending that they will just go away because you used RED so how could problems not just disappear is really failing in matters of providing good administration by fostering the community. When administrator response is then to be insulting, it becomes more a matter of a petty dictator since no response is allowed or you lose your priveleges. It also makes the problem worse since the people involved (in this case me) moves from being angry at the other forumite to being angry at the administrator. I don't want a cup of tea, but I do want to think that something will be done to get things back on track and that problems will be handled. Previously I have not gotten a cup of tea, I have recieved in order two requests that I edit post to delete material that offended other posters and I did so and an alert that material other people thought would offend me had been removed (I was perplexed by that one since the poster in question seemed totally off point with said attack, so I'd actually just ignored it. Perhaps this should have worried me that so many people were percieving insults to me and causing staff to come into a thread where I'd only seen someone lose sight of the debate.). I also received notification that a thread I was posting on was closing for the holidays to give everyone a chance to cool down. Funnily, I was content with these methods, even when directed against things I had posted. Not happy or overjoyed, but willing to accept that these things were necessary. Fast forward, and within the past couple of years I've recieved blatently insulting and one-sided e-mail from staff, and then in this case recieved no e-mail regarding an actual problem, which is intellectual fraud or false identity or whatever else you would like to call it. I'm not trying to pursue this topic here. When I got fed up with waiting for an e-mail, I sent one out. Having been publicly insulted by the mod the last time I posted (a post which was intended mostly to address issues of how to debate so that the topic could continue, though I have no problem with being told that was still off topic and to stop, I have a problem with the manner that I was told to do so), and being under the impression that this mod doesn't use the mail server since no mail for me, I left one line telling her where to look and asking that she stop insulting me. I finally had enough when staff who was not involved decided to shove two cents in and could not even wait for the moderator who had been handling things to sort things out. Funnily, I did not report for the insult, but to send them both some kind of official message that they could both see, as well as their superiors to get it sorted out as to who was handling things and to not make the problem worse by purposefully antagonizing me when I was trying to find a way to get the conversation off the board as they wanted, which I shouldn't have had to do because the mod should have taken care of it already, not furthered it by insulting me. I then came here not to spend my time trying to specifically blame people for flawed handling (which is why I did not even give the specific names in the current incident until the people involved wanted to jump in), but to try and figure out where the flaw in the system lies and try to find a way to fix it. Strange how the system worked before but does not work now. It's not a matter of me losing rather than winning. I've lost before, and yet staff wasn't insulting me before because they thought they had the authority to get away with it. Staff that I ran into also had a nice system in place of handling things through e-mail so that resolution could take place without placing me in the position where I have to break the rules by doing something on the boards in various attempts to resolve things, ending up with a lose-lose proposition since staff then fails in looking authoritative while I necessarily get in trouble for breaking the rules. If you want to ignore this problem at ineffectually handling forum problems and forumites to the point of making things worse and your jobs harder, there's not much I can do about it. I'm appalled at the number of people who think "shut up" is a solution. If this is what staff thinks as a group, then you prove my point that you need additional training in conflict resolution to actually be good at this position. P.S. If you really don't want me here, then ban me. That is the whole rules/consequences thing, which some of you seem to have confused with a free speech argument. See, you don't control me. I control me. It is up to me to decide what I want to do. It is up to you to decide to punish me. And it is then up to me to decide what to do about said punishment. Of course, this would be much easier for you if I voluntarily went along with you because I respected you because you handled things well. This could be easier for me if I repressed all anger and made myself ill. . . Oh, wait, I don't think that's really any better for me. I don't care for banning anymore than I care for making myself ill. I chose trying to fix the problem. If you don't choose fix the problem because its much easier to ignore it for the moment, then there's nothing I can do. But hey, its your choice.
  6. Staff Training

    Thank you for posting the complete timeline. Please do notice I was patient for two days while apparently nothing occurred to straighten anything out and that things were still not straightened out afterwards. The issue still stands for that matter with no steps to resolve it. You can certainly see my earliest posts in this chain for an idea of why I am still upset about that. Please do also note that I let the matter drop and was going to handle the matter in PMs, which should have been done in the first place, except that krowe brought it back up rather than let rhiannon handle it. I spoke on topic. I reported krowe out of pure exasperation that now he was both butting in and bringing the matter back up and because at that point since no one bothered to contact me I was now left wondering what the hell was going on in general. Somehow he couldn't let her handle her own mail? I don't get allowed to talk again at all? That made three cases for me where the mods and staff actually made matters worse rather than acting to take care of the community. I'd rather fix things now than see things get bad for everyone. Come now, if I see things heading downhill my choices are either to not say anything now and spend my time kicking myself for not at least trying to point out the problem earlier on or at least say something and make the effort to pinpoint what the flaw is. Those who rule only do so because those who are ruled allow it. I don't have to listen, I choose to do so. I did specifically say that there were consequences. Using positions of power to insult forumites is not right. It only breeds more problems. Ignoring underlying problems to just gloss over the surface is eventually ineffective because all the problems that you've glossed over will come back to bite you in the butt in large quantities. As to comments about the literal rules, you surely know the saying that no story plan survives contact with the players. I am not asking for you to change the rules, but for you to think about how you enforce them and particularly how you handle forumites. I didn't write "the staff sucks" I wrote that the quality of staff handling of the forumites appears to have gone down. There is a problem in how the staff is handling people and that perhaps the staff needs more training. Your comments that the staff boards are full of discussion of how to use the color RED does not assure me that you're thinking about the people and solving problems rather than just glossing them over. I hate working customer service, but I did do so for many years. Are so many members of the staff lacking that experience that they cannot handle incidents where forumites are mad at other forumites rather than directly at staff with neutral courtesy? Rhiannon wasn't doing poorly there, but made no attempt to find any resolution of the problem.
  7. Staff Training

    I'd take the clever and intelligent even in the spirit it was offered in if I did not think actually pursuing this course is ultimately foolish because it will be futile. It was last time. But, hey, I have to try anyway because not fighting a bad trend would be worse. I can't provide solid examples of other posters because I don't sit around trolling for fights and I'm not privy to what's in other people's message boxes. I don't know that the moderators never contacted them to get to the root problem. Perhaps some of you are under the mistaken impression that I was upset at the mod issuing a warning. That's not the problem. The problem is the lack of follow up. While she phrased it politiely, it amounts to "shut up." Which is all well and good if you intend to do something about the problem. In all other cases, the mods have always contacted me through the message system to sort things out. This did not occur, despite occurring every other time when I did not report an offence. Anger does not just vanish because it is inconvenient. I don't know what problem Fabio was referencing occurring elsewhere, but it sounds as if no one took care of that one either. By handling it only on the boards, the mod kept the problem on the boards. Insulting anyone publicly is largely what people get reported for. Mods should certainly not be indulging in it. Turning comments of smug, condescending, ect as a personal complaint then this should also be addressed to the person not to the board. Nor should the staff be prolonging things by further antagonizing people who are obviously already upset. These are people who were fighting, afterall. I am seeing a trend of "you will do what we say because we say it," which is ultimately not good. I should want to do what the mods say because I respect them and because they will make an effort to address the problem. I am also seeing a lack of respect for posters in the form of insults and provocations. As for specifics, I'm not avoiding putting them up because I don't have them, I'm avoiding putting them up because there's always other people involved. Even people I hate don't deserve to have their names publicly dragged through the mud just because I can. If some more mods and staff would like to insist this is important and that it is appropriate that I post such in this forum then I will do so. I don't know if this is caused by absolute power corrupting absolutely (I have this delusion that people who indulge in gaming are familiar enough with this problem to actively avoid it) or by people being overzealous in beating others over the head now that they have the power without considering the responsibilities that go with it, or some other cause or view. That the problem still exists and was not addressed since last time is evident.
  8. Staff Training

    Actually I reported in the offensive poster. I got no response. Much much later rhiannon popped up. The other poster then returned to try to say again that I insulted him. No one said a word in my defense since I didn't. Rhiannon did nothing. you did nothing. I posted again to explain myself. Rhiannon took that as an insult and started insulting me publicly, yet again, not contacting me by e-mail or actually responding to me in a constructive way. Since I was tired of being publicly attacked I made note that I was moving this to e-mail and that I was angry at being insulted. YOU decided to butt in and bring it back up again. Actually it is my privelage to decide to whom and when I will listen. I'm not a robot slave who does what I am told to do just because I am told to do it. It may have consequences, but it's still my choice. I don't do what assholes tell me to do. Don't be an ass when you're trying to take care of a situation. It is that attitude which made the problem worse. And, btw, from a public relations standpoint you either look like you're taking part in bullying because you've got the power to or don't trust the mod to do the job when you try to step in and do it for her. Don't care what you thought you were doing, that's what your behavior looks like. Given that you've now said I should obey you even if you're an asshole, I'm all the more inclined to believe you are a bully. You picked the word, not me. I usually look at all others as well meaning and well intentioned until they make personal insults. When the mods ignore my concerns and do not contact me to tell me what the hell that was all about or what is going on, then its not fixed. Aside from what I said publicly, there is in this case the particular problem of academic fraud on the part of another forumite. I'm perfectly happy speaking with experts or just people who enjoy things, but claiming to be an expert and then proving not to know basic, accepted facts of the field you're representing is fraud and a disservice to everyone who does actually study such things. That's still not been addressed and has been pretty much ignored. I will not let that drop because academic honesty and integrety are incredibly important. All in all it was handled poorly, left me with the impression nothing was being done to address the actual problems, gave me no recourse to address the problems, resulted in being insulted by the mods because can the writing actually have a feeling or emotion with attributing said negative characteristic to the writer? Got dragged out because the mods insisted in addressing it on the boards rather than in IMs or in a combination thereof. Got dragged out more because someone who was not assigned to the problem decided to butt in and apparently didn't care if he was an ass or not. Considering that my earliest experience things were handled much better, it seems as if the mods have taken negative public relations training. Do you wish me to go into more detail on the other issue? I had let it drop mainly thinking it was a fluke and that the other forumite who was involved should actually be left alone. I was the whipping girl and got punished and she got no punishment. I don't believe either of us deserved anything in particular for what happened. It made it awfully difficult to protest since part of my problem was that if there was an offense we were both equal in it. I didn't believe there was anything much to pursue, and the conversation was ended (she also did not believe so, as far as I know, no one actually reported anything), so I refused to take the position that she did anything all that wrong or that she should really be punished. As I said, everything was relatively fine and there appeared to be no problems until several weeks later when the mod decided to pick a fight over it apparently because he could. I thought it was a fluke of one incompetant mod. Now I'm not so certain that there's not a pervasive problem. Do you want me to dig it up further and name names? I am really more concerned that mods are starting to believe "it doesn't matter if we're assholes, you will do as you're told." That's not right, solves nothing, and throws oil on fires or in somecases apparently brings the wood, oil, paper, a box of matches, and maybe some explosives to the party. I'm not seeking to play the blame game so much as find out what the hell is going on to cause the drop in quality in the past year or so.
  9. Staff Training

    I'm not sure this is the correct forum for this, but this was my best guess. Move it if I'm in the wrong place. I realize staff and moderators are volunteers, but the past two times I've had run ins with staff they've made situations worse (in one case actually provoking a problem when both I and the other forumite involved were just peachy keen and not fighting before the moderator showed up). One of the things I like about these boards when I first started was that I was treated decently by the moderators. This did not mean that they were on my side, but that they were neutral. They talked to me politely through IMs. They made the problem stop. I was impressed. On the second encounter with a mod, things were similarly well-handled. On the third encounter, apparently multiple other people had decided I was under attack and reported another poster when it really hadn't registered with me that way, so the mod's "all taken care off" IM left me with a bewildered "there was something to take care of? Well, ok, thanks." Then comes my rather disasterous encounter with the C:tD forum, in which case apparently I was fine, the other poster was fine, the Vilicus had posted on the topic and just let it drop, and the moderator for some reason felt the need to privately IM me a pile of insults. Due to the fact that there was no way to report IMs and to the fact that the board was under construction so I couldn't find the rules about who to report the moderator to, I ended up mailing quite a few of the people in the C:tD court because I couldn't figure out who to contact to handle the problem. Big trouble on their end, for which I was sorry for involving people unrelated to the disagreement resolution process, but I was not treated in a neutral manner because they "knew the other poster" who had in fact started the brief matter of insults and because she was good and sweet and pure she must be innocent and all moderator related insults to me justified. It was the most outrageous thing I had ever heard as far as dispute resolution. The Vilicus at least made some attempt to settle things, but the whole damn thing could have been avoided if the moderator in question had the least ability to be polite rather than using his position to bully. I don't do as someone tells me because they're more powerful than I am and threatening me, I do as I am ASKED because the person asking is being reasonable and has earned my respect. Now there's yet another dispute going on in the White Wolf Forum. I'm no angel, I'm no victim. I also have no patience with people who insult me or try to perpetrate intellectual fraud. I'm not usually one to try to report things and see if it works, I'm more inclined to wait and try to settle things unless it gets entirely ridiculous. Think poorly of me if you like. This does not excuse the fact that I am now being insulted by the moderator who has made things worse, and that additional staff are provoking the problem by publicly drawing things out. To make matters stranger, I had bothered to try the system by reporting things, and so far this is not inspiring more faith in the methods around here. If I protest then I have the implied threat of being banned, but I have no recourse. (Is there some list of negetive adjectives staff are allowed to use which are denied to the rest of us? I'd love to see this thing. It might explain the last two experiences with mods.) Perhaps management should have a long talk about what techniques work and which ones don't and how to treat the forumites. Here's a clue, starting out by insulting people doesn't work. Publicly threatening people only works some of the time, and should be saved for when all else fails. Prolonging talk about a problem on the forum rather than dealing with it in private with the forumites in question doesn't work because sometimes it then appears that the real problem isn't being addressed.
  10. Urban Fantasy vs Urban Horror

    Fine. Please see your e-mail. Please don't assume I'm smug and insult me in public if you're the moderator. True enough. This leaves the problem though that we seem to disagree as to how WoD should be judged. It's a creative work like any book, movie, or play, therefore I'll contend that the genre definitions are what should apply when talking about it. Otherwise you run the risk of literal definitions where in the game its self is horror ie you have a complete aversion to it or that its tasteless. When people speak of reading a horror novel they mean something different than that novel was a horror to read. And that was a fantasy game . . . so it was a non-existant hallucination of your mind? Applying all definitions at once to be inclusive just doesn't work in practice.
  11. Urban Fantasy vs Urban Horror

    If you never say anything is wrong, you never move past misconceptions to actual discussion. This is not to say there's not objective opinion on items, but you don't get to have an opinion on IF Winston Churchill was prime minister, you get an opinion on how good he was at it. Asking if someone's been to a bookstore recently is in no way a literacy issue or an attack, its a question of if they've paid attention to current trends in books. There are perfectly literate people who won't read anything written after 1818. There are perfectly literate people who read only Victorian literature. I know one of both. If you discuss a genre like you've totally missed the past 80 years of development then it sounds like you haven't been perusing that section of the book store any time recently. I'm only dimly aware of literary trends in modern horror because as I've said before, I don't like it. Everyone has the right to ask where you're getting strange ideas that contradict common sense and experience. And there is such a thing as an expert, whether it be someone massively well decorated in combat or Louis L'Amour who doesn't have a bit of paper but every Western historian bows down to his research because he works that hard. I've known forumites who were experts in religion to forumites who were engineers. I believe them when they tell me things about their fields. As to Horror/Fantasy/Scfi its natural to group them together because they all fall under the category of speculative fiction. They're the same type of thing in that they all ask "what if" questions as in what if this wierd monster/technology/magical effect existed (and there are other types of fiction that can get stuffed in there such as supernatural fiction). Applause to krowe for a nice sum up. I'm still going to state that you're wrong about Fantasy containing Horror. It just doesn't. Overlap some so that a particular book can be debated to be one or the other, but they are distinctly separate. Horror =horror. Fantasy = sense of wonder. Its not the fantastical elements, its the mood that divides.
  12. Urban Fantasy vs Urban Horror

    I don't take offense, so much as feel I must not have explained it clearly enough or wandered off being too technical, which I was trying to avoid. That's why I didn't pull out the big nerd stick of "doing doctorial thesis and here are all my footnotes" in the first post and why I tried to keep to widely familiar works (thus references to Stephen King, Hitchcock, Poe, and Scooby Doo. ) It's no fun knowing the answers to a question and trying to explain them to other people and then realizing you've gotten to technical to be understood by people who aren't specialists in the same area. I'd rather have someone keep me in check if I didn't explain it properly. Ok, to pick from the recent best seller lists, try on Harry Potter and Johnathan Strange and Mr. Norrell. Both British, both set in the contemporary world. Harry passes into fantastic places hidden from the sight of mundanes/Muggles in contemporary Britain. JS&MN is set during the Napoleonic Wars. You don't have to be an expert to see that its not medieval, and the presumption that fantasy is associated with a particular time period is absurd. I can keep pulling titles from the Incompleat Enchanter to the Wizard of Oz to Bewitched/I Dream of Jeannie to the Incarnations of Immortality. These aren't expert knowledge, obscure books. Setting is entirely flexible and always has been. As I recall the question was what's urban fantasy vs. Urban horror and nothing to do with WoD, but ok. Well, I don't usually knock people for not being experts. I usually presume most people aren't. If I offended you by pulling out the big nerd whacking stick, I am sorry. please do understand that there's nothing like being told you know nothing about an area you know quite a bit about (have spent the past month reading tough technical books about) by someone who claimed to be an expert but is clearly lacking both background research in the history of the topic and knowledge of modern (as in the past 80 years) trends. And I do love the graph due to overlap. There is overlap, and things can come down to splitting hairs. This is why I took a stance on what fantasy and horror are based on the most basic definition, but not what the WoD has to be. I thought that perhaps in giving simple definitions and examples it would allow everyone to determine for themselves what their game is. I do agree with the earlier poster that Wraith was dark fantasy. Changeling was urban fantasy. Notice how they were the oWoD lines that died off? While I liked them, fans weren't wrong when they said they didn't match the rest of the setting. V:TM, W:tA, and most other lines are written as horror. Part of this, it should be noted, is also a matter of how you play the game, which none of us can know for anyone else. You can stress a sense of wonder in vampire, but its not written that way. I can't find any references to "urban" horror. I suspect that this is because most horror is written as contemporary to the author. the term Urban in fantasy writing only appeared in the 1980s to describe a much older but then popular trend.
  13. Urban Fantasy vs Urban Horror

    For someone who got upset for me asking if you've even been to a bookstore lately, you certainly have no problem attacking me or presuming I have no credentials. It's now bothering me not to point out that I'm doing my doctoral thesis on the female gothic, which I've been working on for over a year and will be working on for quite a bit longer. In the process of this I've done a lot of studying of the roots of Gothic, and about a week before this question about Horror vs. Fantasy was posted I had a rather dumb moment where I was splitting hairs over the difference between Urban Fantasy and Gothic and forgot and had to go reread that very passage on what fantasy is, so I'm actually extremely well-versed to know the answer to this question. Though I've known Fantasy and Horror were two different things since I studied Early American Lit during my Master's work. Fantasy, Horror, and Scifi are all classed as different branches of Speculative Fiction. They have sister genre relationships, not a direct descent. Now let's look at what you wrote You said nothing about cornorstones. You said rather bluntly that horror is associated with the Victorian Era. I have no problem acknowledging Poe and other Gothic writers as contributors to the Horror Genre. But that's not where horror is now, nor is it the associations the layman has. Stephen King is more likely to come up than Ann Radcliffe. And, if you really want to try to say that you meant merely the roots of horror, you're actually off an era, since the Gothic literary movement pre-dates Queen Victoria, so, again you're wrong. I could also go on about the Southern Gothic which comes from South US and Southern Ontario Gothic which are modern movements that illustrate two places where Gothic Horror, at the very least, is today. Neither of which are associated with the Victorian Era. I think I rather ably pointed out Hitchcock movies and slasher flicks the last time through. Horror has no obvious associations with the Victorian Era. It is a very different thing to say horror is rooted somewhere and to say it is associated with something. And again, if you're looking at Horror originating in the Gothic, then the supernatural elements are about half and half. The "male" Gothic uses overt horror elements and is more likely to have uncontrollable supernatural elements as the basis of the plot. The "female" Gothic is more inclined to build suspense and then have a rational explanation underlying what appear to be supernatural things. (See Art of Darkness by Anne Williams if you have a background in literary theory and really want to know all the details.) Only about half the roots of gothic horror deal with actual supernatural circumstances. The others are kind of like early Scooby Doo, there's a suspected "ghost" but its really some more tangible villain in a mask. I presume I don't need to go back and point out the errors in the fantasy section in more detail. I think most posters own experiences can prove your assertians wrong. "Urban" has been a recognized subgenre of fantasy for about 20 years, and does not simply mean all works set in a non-medieval place. I suspect the errors there occurred because, again, you were concerned with the roots, didn't identify them as such, and continued on with your thesis, and now its easier to insult me rather than admit you misrepresented things. And, I must point out, that if you're going to display vast lack of knowledge about what kind of books are currently being published and what the trends are to the point you try to convince us that fantasy must be medieval (not prehistoric, not time travel, not renaissance, not contemporary) then questioning if you've been in a bookstore is the most mild reaction you're going to get. This isn't new stuff.
  14. Urban Fantasy vs Urban Horror

    I won't bother with the lynching. You're wrong because you presume that everything with "fantastical elements" IE unreal things is classed as fantasy. That's not true therefore the rest of your statement is untrue. Want to muddy the waters that much and you'll have to account for Christian/Pagan/Religious (anything with God doing overt miracles, the devil tempting people, or kitchen witches brewing spells contains supernatural fantastical elements) fiction like the Screwtape Letters and its fantastical elements, as well as the light fantastical (to extreme fantastical) elements that can appear in Gothic fiction (Jane and Rochesters psychic mind to mind connection make Jane Eyre a fantasy? Catherine's Ghost makes Wurthering Heights a fantasy? These books are focused so much more on other things and the appearence of the fantastical is does not evoke a sense a wonder so much as vengence and hope. The romantic results are more important). Been to a bookstore any time recently? It doesn't have a medieval association. Fantasy is as likely to be Naomi Novik's Temaire stories or Neil Gaimen's Neverwhere as Tolkein's middle Earth. And plots in FAIRY TALES highlight right from wrong. This is not so in fantasy as a genre any more than any other genre. In every genre the heroes usually win in the end with little moral ambiguity. Again, there's no reason for there to necessarily be supernatural elements. Check out The Strangers which is being advertised currently on TV. Its a home invasion horror tale about what appear to be perfectly normal sadistic people. Check out Alfred Hitchcock's Psycho or Rear Window or Vertigo. The Birds is the only one that comes to mind with supernatural elements. Just because slasher Jason/Freddie movies became popular doesn't mean that's all there is. I suspect that other than the Jason/Freddie stuff a lot of what you're classing as fantastic elements (vampires) is actually a subset of horror known as Gothic Horror. Associated with the Victorian era? Since when? That sounds more like a description of the Gothic style than of Horror in general. Strangely I'd say most of those are Lovecraftian horror elements. Other than the time shifting power. That I have trouble seeing as a horror power and simply see as a power. It has too much potential to evoke a sense of wonder.
  15. Urban Fantasy vs Urban Horror

    Morals or lack of morals have nothing to do with fantasy. The standard definition of fantasy is that it approaches fantastical elements with a "sense of wonder." Is the dragon big and scarey? yeah. but it can also be impressive, monsterously beautiful, and any other adjectives that express its otherworldly majesty. It may still kill you. I'm not fond of the first 3 Dresden files, but remember him fighting the vampire with a ray of sunshine caught on a day when his heart was full of joy? it was something like that, I swear. That's one of the very clear signs its a fantasy as opposed to horror novel Horror obviously evokes horror and terror. You're more likely to encounter small unseen chittering things than you are a dragon, and if you do run into a dragon, its going to be a demonic old god out to devour your soul per cthulu, dripping slime and smelling putrid, and if there's any sense of wonder its in how big its teeth are. So sense of wonder vs. terror and horror. Real simple. I haven't studied the specifics of urban much as yet. I would describe Urban in fantasy as a sad and mournful backdrop because in the few Urban fantasies I've read, such as Neverwhere and The Negotiator trilogy there's that same feeling of fantasy squashed flat and wonder dying and hiding. Urban in general also seems to give government and other authority figures particularly oppressive power. I've never really heard anything termed Urban Horror. I can't think of too much that sets things like Jaws apart from things like Freddie Krueger, but then I hate horror moves and horror novels